keris and spirit

[lelang69]

Originally Posted by David

Again, i don't mean to discount the metaphysical, but i also think it is very important to look at all the possible natural phenomenon possibilities first.

keris.. keris siapa mau beli keris 50% diskon abis nggak pakai perewangan ( keris keris for sale and discount 50% without Methaphysical power). What's a pity keris in southeast asia. is it an aeng tong tong Touris keris or real keris ?

I agree with david we should be look at the natural phenomenon possibility . But David , I suggest you should be put the natural aspects in number 100 after Methaphysical power in the first place when you are talking about keris with Indonesia or it's neigbouring country. if you don't you must be KUALAT SANTET (methapysical illness).

for Indonesian and it's neigbouring country, a millions Rupiahs ($ 100.000)keris will turn to be 50 tousands rupiahs keris ($ 40s) when they completly do not own methaphysical power.

we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist.

This is the reality condition in the world of keris lover In Indonesia and it's neigbouring country,

isn't it Pak Raden usman, pak ganjawulung Leres nggeh!, cik alam Syah bersetuju kah!

[PenangsangII]

Lelang69,

I beg to differ WRT your statement that fake spiritually imbued power keris is so widely spread in Southeast Asia, especially in other countries than Indonesia. I am not what the keris market is in Indonesia, but I can tell you for certain, here in Malaysia the situation is very different.

Sure, the blank keris (wedding & tourist craps) are on sale in the open, but most collectors (and pesilat) are aware of what the vendors are selling....crap.

Keris making activities in Malaysia are not as thriving compare to Indonesia (based on info you provided, it's quite big), though I am not sure how this "industry" is like in indonesia. In Malaysia, the keris making activities are dying simply because the pandai keris do not mass produce their craft, and still retain the traditional way of keris forging. If I were to order a standard keris from a smith, it would take him at least 3 - 4 months to complete. And with the mahar of around MYR 700 - 1000 (about USD 200 - 300) per piece, I wonder how he can support his livelihood. That is why, keris making is dying here.

Most collectors therefore would prefer to source their collection from the antique shops, other collectors, internet etc. for older kerises that still maintain its khadam in them

[rahman]

I used to be engaged in a fiery discussion in another forum and was insulted badly by a few forumites when putting across the traditional way of treating the keris in my collection, and the way I communicated with the keris (in this case, the guardian of the keris). From then on, I swear to myself to never again discuss keris in the spiritual context.

So Hana, please be prepared as the non traditionalists will bash you up to the maximum if you are not careful when discussing this subject. Some of them are perhaps what the other forumites termed as "ghost readers" and would definitely jump in when the situation warrants.

Penangsang is probably referring to his unpleasant experience in KampungNet, and that came about when he chose to belittle the faith other members have in their Islamic traditions. Indeed, I had up to that point resisted requests to shut down that particular thread.

As David has already warned, there is no such danger here, and I encourage discussions on these mystical aspects here rather than in KampungNet, where no such reactions should arise or would be welcomed.

[HanaChu69]

Greetings keris experts,

Great to see more replies in this sharing session..I guess we are moving right on track…I like the different version of “Pangkur Gedhong Kuning”..Aspirational indeed…

Penangsang – Thanks for the tips. As for the insults you received from the other forums, its very norm. Look at it this way; different forums have various viewers of different culture. Take the positive and switch off the negative comments. BTW, it’s sad to hear about the dying keris making trades in Malaysia.

Bram – I have to agree that “Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen” has a class of its own. I saw how Mans and friends managed to trace the village. It was quite challenging as there’s no directional sign amidst the forestry area. I saw their kerises and find their craftsmanship worthy. I might consider them if I have a new patrem in mind to custom made to my aesthetic liking maybe someday.

Usman – I know that there are no specific rules on the three consecutive aspects of keris but my preference will be aesthetical, technical followed lastly by spiritual aspects.

Ganjawulung – I knew of someone who has a powerful keris but zero from aesthetic aspect. He will collect only kerises with spiritual aspect. So it’s very subjective.

David - I believe anything is possible. You may have a keris without “khadam/sakti”. However, if you are likeable, these spirits may just reside and hop into your keris as a dwelling place. It’s a figure of speech to contextualize my understanding.

May the force be with you…

[David]

Originally Posted by lelang69

we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist.

I think that it should be clear that the vast majority of keris, both old AND new, were not created by an empu. This is a rather specific title as AFAIK. So it seems likely to me that many keris have been created over the centuries by village pandai that were meant to provide more than just "beauty and mass commodity for the tourist". These are cultural items created with a cultural purpose, not for tourists or just collectors.
Contemporary keris are created today on many levels of quality and execution. Many collectors are happy to collect the best of these new keris even if they were created with no metaphysical intent, but purely for their beauty and execution. But i have found that some of these keris have great presence inspite of the lack of such intent. I have also found that a keris with such a presence can be a great empty container which can be filled with spiritual intent if one so wills it. Frankly, one can fill a steak knife with such intent if that is your choice. It just won't be so beautiful to look at.
IMHO, powerful magickal objects are useless in the hands of those who do not possess the power and magick within themselves to wield them.

Originally Posted by lelang69

isn't it Pak Raden usman, pak ganjawulung Leres nggeh!, cik alam Syah bersetuju kah!

Lelang, you were doing so well up to here. You have been asked before not to write untranslated passages on this forum. I have no problem with any language written here as long as an accurate translation is also provided. Since you have used Indonesian phrases in the past to pass insults i am particularly wary. Consider yourself warned.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by lelang69

keris.. keris siapa mau beli keris 50% diskon abis nggak pakai perewangan ( keris keris for sale and discount 50% without Methaphysical power). What's a pity keris in southeast asia. is it an aeng tong tong Touris keris or real keris ?

....KUALAT SANTET (methapysical illness).

......we should aware as keris lover , keris Empus provide methaphysical, phylosophy aspect in every keris they create
and the Aeng tong tong Keris Smith provide the beauty and mass commodity for the tourist........

In defense of aeng Tong Tong keris makers: Mas Hidayat, posting here as Mans can take you to Aeng Tong Tong and introduce you to keris makers who have TOP technical skills. How much can you afford to spend? Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen can make the keris for you. They make keris for a living, be the buyers people who rent out traditional dress or tourists (the tourist market is the smaller one). Aeng Tong Tong is the ONLY village in the whole wild world that has made keris for many many generations, with a pause only during the Japanese occupation durion WWII. If you can't respect that, I suggest you learn to.

Kuwalat and Santet are two different terms relating to different things. Kualat is when someone gets ill-fortune because of disrespecting something he should respect. For example, Lelang might be kuwalat because of the slander he dishes to the Aeng Tong Tong craftsmen. According to tradition if you are kuwalat, when you go to Hell you are hung by your feet with your head down. Santet is a black magic attack mostly initiated by dukun santet. Kuwalat and santet are different things.

Perewangan is not, as Lelang translated, mystical power. A perewangan (from the word rewang - help) is a person who can fall into trance and obtain help from the spiritual realm to answer certain questions like... who stole my keris? ... So a perewangan is a certain type of dukun who falls into trance when his/her helper takes over. Lelang, on the other hand, means auction.

Warm salams,
Bram