Help with the stamps please

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim,

I did not find the part about any tribal group in Gujerat, nor did I find any katar stamp in The Indian Sword (Danish edition), but I found half a trisula, page 154 #65 – see the picture. The text does not mention the blade, but says that the hilt is Lahuri type early 19th century, and the sword belongs to the V&A Museum.

[Berkley]

KÁTHIAWÁR

The Kattees of Guzerat carry a sword, shield, and spear. The latter is about 8 ft. long, and is made so slender as to break when thrown at the enemy, to whom it thus becomes useless.
Till the establishment of the British supremacy in 1835, no deed or agreement was considered binding unless guaranteed by the mark of the “ Katár,” and on the failure or breach of a contract they inflicted “trágá,” on themselves, (i.e. committed suicide) or, in extreme cases, carried out the murder of relations with that weapon. The Bards of Guzerat were hereditary heralds, and guardians of “trágá.” They seldom appeared without the Katár, a representation of which was scrawled beside their signatures, and rudely engraved on their monumental stones.
“Trágá” as generally performed extends no farther than a cut with the “Katár” in the arm, and those people who are in the habit of becoming security generally have such cuts from the elbow downward.

Egerton , Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour, p.137, citing in footnote “Trans. Of the Lit. Soc. Of Bombay. 1813. Forbes’ Ras Mala, p. 558 (new edition) 1878.”

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you very much Berkley - you have been a great help.
Should you have any more 'points' please let us know.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens,
Thank you very much, that picture is the exact sword I was thinking of!!! I couldnt remember which source, but I've seen it in several places.

Berkeley!!
Nicely done, thats the exact reference I was trying to recall.Thank you so much for posting the paragraph and citing...very much appreciated!!

Battara, thanks for the note on the Shiva connection for the trisula.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

So back to the original topic, was this deeply stamped trisula marking that seems to occur basically in the same location on Indian blades, an armoury mark or other? The occurence of markings on Indian blades that may distinctively identify armouries or arsenals has been suggested frequently but the only key identification seems to be items from Bikaner. It has been hoped that markings such as these 'trisulas' might provide clues to armoury identification, but that has proven considerably elusive.

As I have noted, I have seen the trisula marking in circular cartouche in the same location on a tulwar blade that was quite heavy and likely of latter 17th century. In the same type cartouche bear the hilt, as shown in the illustration Jens has presented, the inscription appeared in Urdu. As I also indicated earlier, later blades appear on tulwars of the 19th c. with a more stylized trisula with thinner stamp, and these seem to be of Rajasthan manufacture.

In the case of Alex's blade, with the trisula as well as the katar, I have wondered before with another sword with similar stamps, whether the weapon might have been associated with the Kattee's of Gujerat ( and I thank Berkley again for finding the reference I had lost). If the katar was of such importance, and clearly the enforcement of thier tradition was so strongly represented by it, then certainly such an insignia might be placed a weapon intended for such action. It almost seems that it appears in a subordinate position to the apparantly well established symbol of Shiva, the trisula, which of course occurs in variations previously described.

I am wondering whether the trisula, though obviously a religiously themed symbol, may have been adopted in a sense as a mark of quality or power, much in the same sense as the well known 'sickle marks' (termed 'gurda' on Caucasian blades) and of course trade blades from other centers.

Perhaps armoury markings in the parlance we have considered, as found in the regulation or issue weapons of many countries, may not apply in the same manner here. It does seem that collected and inventoried weapons however do reflect numeric or categoric markings, such as found in the Bikaner weapons.

The 'umbrella' marking or stamp sometimes seen on Indian blades it seems generally held to signify 'royalty' or high rank, and the examples seen seem to hold somewhat similar connotation as the trisula stamps, despite the elusive nature of that connotation.

As always, it would be great to hear more ideas on these stamps and on thier possible meaning, as well as thoughts on the armoury concept. Would armouries have had makers to produce thier own weapons, or would they have used such a stamp to approve the quality or acceptance of the weapon ( such as the 'proof' marks on regulation weapons)?
What about the katar stamp? Could that designate this a Kattee weapon? Would the stamp have been added later subordinate to the 'quality' or symbolic trisula?

Hoping to hear more

All the best,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim,

To be able to start qualified guessing, we would need a lot of pictures of tulwars with these markings on the blades and detailed pictures of the marks, or alternatively know someone who has seen a lot of these blades. When these pictures are compared, we may have learned enough to start pointing in a direction. The marks Alex has shown are both very deep, and I would like to know if marks this deep were made while the blade was made, or if they could have been made afterwards. If a mark that deep could have been made afterwards, and if we believe them to be armoury marks, these marks could be from two different armouries, or maybe like you suggests a quality mark and an armoury mark, or maybe they are talismanic marks - but so far we are guessing. These marks are seen now and again, but not very often, so to gather a lot of pictures would at the best be difficult, and could only be done with the help of a lot of collectors.

I have a correction to you comment about the known armoury marks. It is true that we know the Bikaner mark, but we also know the one from Kishanghar, and the one from Alwar/Ulwar. Perhaps someone on the forum knows some more.

Jens

[dralin23]

hi alex
please show me the complete sword blade!! (if you could ). i bought for one year also an indian sword( i don´t know if it is an khanda ore rather an patissa sword) with exactly the same stamps at the surface.i will make for you some pic, than can you see it and maybe someone from the sword forum can tell me what a kind of sword it is? you can find also such stamps at an khanda sword at the web site from gnwtc( great noth west trading company) in america. i think it was in the sword room 3 ore 4.
please forgive my terrible english, but my last lesson was nearby 30 years ago, and now is the way from my head to the fingers so long
best wishes,
stefan