keris and spirit

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Oh..can we proceed with topics on “tayuh’ and “nayuh’ please….

Sincerely,
HanaChu69
[/I]

Hana,

if I am not mistaken...em...after reading old threads I have a conclusion that a lot of waroeng kopi attendances have very deep understanding of keris.... more than expected before. It means that "tayuh" or "nayuh" is nothing new amongst our colleagues.

I don't have any ability to "nayuh" and, perhaps, just have a little bit information about "tayuh". Based on that little information of "tayuh", it is wise to learn scientific and "pakem"ic (tangguh, sepuh, pamor, and so on) aspects of keris before learning about "tayuh" and doing "nayuh".

Why? I dont know exactly the answer. Perhaps, you must ask to our colleagues either here or by personal message.

Usman

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Hana,

I don't have any ability to "nayuh" and, perhaps, just have a little bit information about "tayuh". Based on that little information of "tayuh", it is wise to learn scientific and "pakem"ic (tangguh, sepuh, pamor, and so on) aspects of keris before learning about "tayuh" and doing "nayuh".

Usman

Hana,

to continue about "nayuh" and "tayuh" (Hana, I do really wanna know these words in english, so please translate it)

one of the greatest challenges in "nayuh" is to differentiate between the imagination and the "real message". to strengthen the ability for differentiating it, imho, it is important to have wide knowledge of keris. Pakem Keris is learnt by mind. "Nayuh" is done by heart/soul. Let mind as a good guardian of heart/soul. Without strong and capable guardian, heart/soul can be trapped nowhere but "fantasy". it is very dangerous, actually.

may I explore by an analogy:

firstly, if I have a thick book: written in the cover "ensiklopedi keris by bambang harsrinuksmo", there are pictures: keris 13 curves outside its sheath. lets imagine all of metioned above just like "tangguh/period, pamor, ricikan/detail, dhapur/model[?]" in a certain keris. these information will be used as a compass.

secondly, I would like to know inside that book. If it is real book, it is very easy, just open it then read. But lets imagine the book is a keris. To know inside, one of the ways, is by doing "nayuh". when in nayuh, I meet with robert langdon and sophie neveu, for the sake of my goodness, I must stop it immediately. Why? instead of getting "real message", I am creating "a fantasy based on dan brown's novel: da vinci code". if in the cover written "ensiklopedi keris", the book (the keris) should explain about keris (its spiritual aspects) inside.

thridly, even in "nayuh" I get images or explanations about keris, I must still need to test and retest it. sometimes, well-planned/well-organized fantasy happens.

em...thats all for now, I must take a bath and go to workplace.

Usman

[David]

Usman, you continue to show keen insights on this subject and i find your Da Vinci Code analogy to be quite good.
I do not believe you will find any single word in English that properly discribes nayuh or tayuh so it is probably best to work more on finding a good definition for these words and then continue to these words in the context of our conversation.
I do understand why some may be hesitant to discuss these subjects here on the forum, however i would still like to encourage it. The subject will be taken seriously here and you should have no fear of ridicule. This is also not the type of subject that can be held up to scientific measurement and i will insist that all peoples beliefs be treated with respect and understanding.

[HanaChu69]

“Hana, Calling Usman..Come in Usman”…sorry, I’m very busy lah..

Usman, I shall input my generic understanding on the definition of “menayuh” and “tayuh”. “Menayuh keris” is the procedure in communicating with the keris if that particular keris is fit for the owner. It can be done through dreams or a keris expert. “Tayuh” is to ask what is the mission of the respective keris, who is the “Empu” etc. It can be done only by a person who is expert in this field.

Please do correct me for I may have the wrong perception.

[PenangsangII]

Indeed, "menayuh" is very interesting subject but a lot of people from the keris culture would normally avoid discussing it in the open for fear of ridicule by "scientologist" or bashing by the so-called "islamist.

I used to be engaged in a fiery discussion in another forum and was insulted badly by a few forumites when putting across the traditional way of treating the keris in my collection, and the way I communicated with the keris (in this case, the guardian of the keris). From then on, I swear to myself to never again discuss keris in the spiritual context.

So Hana, please be prepared as the non traditionalists will bash you up to the maximum if you are not careful when discussing this subject. Some of them are perhaps what the other forumites termed as "ghost readers" and would definitely jump in when the situation warrants.

penangsangII

p.s. you can offer a special prayers to the person/ancestor whom you have inherited the pusaka from, then place the keris under your pillow before going to sleep.

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

So Hana, please be prepared as the non traditionalists will bash you up to the maximum if you are not careful when discussing this subject. Some of them are perhaps what the other forumites termed as "ghost readers" and would definitely jump in when the situation warrants.[/I]

Not on this forum they won't! "Ghost readers" may considered themselves warned! Any "bashing" of anyone's personal spiritual convictions will not be tolerated here and will be very swiftly dealt with!
Now please, let us continue the dialog...
BTW Penangsang, i think perhaps you meant to say "scientists" instead of "scientologists". Though i do sometime wonder what Tom Cruise and John Travolta might think about all this.

[PenangsangII]

Thanks David, that makes me feel a lot safer.

Yes, I guess you are right, my bad choice of word - it should scientist, though not scientist per se. I just don't know the right word. Anyway, if you happen to meet John & Tom, please send my regards, and of course my apology

Sometimes I cannot understand those folks who claimed that they were also collecting keris. Being a traditional weapon that keris is, I believe, it should be treated in a traditional manner although I dont have the slightest apprehension to those who treated keris in a more modern way.

I hope the more knowledgable members can contribute on this "nayuh" subject as I believe I still have a long way to go before reaching Alan, Pak Ganja, Pangeran Datu, Raden Usman's standard and the list goes on.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Indeed, "menayuh" is very interesting subject but a lot of people from the keris culture would normally avoid discussing it in the open for fear of ridicule by "scientologist" or bashing by the so-called "islamist.

Dear experts,

One thing when talking about the 'inside' of a keris, we must avoid being anachronistic, by, for example, speaking of khadam in keris made by mPu before the spread of Islam in Jawa. Khadam is a concept from islamic tradition and is much younger than keris culture. According to islamic traditions, khadam -jinn slaves- can reside in anything the owner puts them in. From Aladien's lamp to a bottle.

If one studies some of the available mantras used by mPus it seems that the original idea is that the magickal power of the keris is the result of 1) The mPu's concentration and 2) the materials used in the keris.

In the case of the materials, iron and steel were in Jawa untill recently, prized metals (Lombard's theory that keris are small because the iron and steel was scarce) and the belief was that within the metals, there is sakti.

Offerings to sakti objects also change through time. In Dutch times, often an offering would require opium. Now you can only get fake opium (you can't get a high from it) in traditional flower sellers in Solo / Yogya, and the sakti / spirits don't use it anymore. Alcohol was also a popular offering to sakti / spirits, and after 'Tanam Paksa' (Cultuurstelsel?) Western plantation products like coffee and tea and tobacco also became popular with the spirits.

My conclusion is that spirits / sakti, if they are to be offered anything at all, should be considered as guests or friends (if they are friendly) and offered whatever you have at hand. There are the traditional incenses and perfumes and flower compositions that are common, like kembang telon, kembang setaman, macan kerah and so on which are artistic and interesting to look at and interesting to think about, but a friendly spirit should not be offended if offered what ever the host has even be it a Dunkin donat. But if an islamic culture khadam resides in a Hindu / animist blade, his/her presence might overshadow or change the type of sakti originally in the blade through the metal composition and the mPu's meditation. Better sing 'Singgah, singgah kala singgah pan suminggah durga kala sumingkir ...."

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.

[David]

[QUOTE=Kiai Carita] Better sing 'Singgah, singgah kala singgah pan suminggah durga kala sumingkir ...." QUOTE]
Bram, would you mind translating this passage? Is this a well know song and is there more to it?
Your point about the changing of offerrings over time is interesting and well taken.