Export of iron from SE Asia

Jens Nordlunde · 4th March 2005, 02:40 PM

Hi Mark,

Thank you for the information, it is interesting to notice, that not only did the Indians export iron, most likely wootz ingots, to countries to the west, as far as Africa, but they also had an export to the east, which is not common knowledge.
Another export route was far more north, in Turkmenistan. In a desert town, in an oasis on the Silk Road, called Merv/Marv, ingots were produced, and sold to the passing merchants. They had neither any iron ore nor any wood, so both had to be ‘imported’, the wood/charcoal from Afghanistan and the ore from further north sailed down, close to Merv on the rivers. You can read more in an article Ann Feuerbach has written in Minerva number 13. issue 4, 2002.

Jens

Bill · 8th March 2005, 06:16 PM

Have been trying to find info on this same subject, looking in the period of 1300-1600. Sumatra & Borneo had iron mined in this period but unlikely for export. Before 1511, Malacca had Chinese, Sulawesi, & Burma iron for sale. Malacca also had many Indian & Arab traders, so concidering how valuable iron was, I would think it would have had any excess iron from any area sold there. From what I read, there was 2 types of Chinese iron. The type they exported was brittle and poor quality to made weapons. The nickeliferous iron from Sulawesi is claimed to have been perfect for mixing with the Chinese iron.

empu kumis · 16th March 2005, 10:09 AM

Hello Kerislovers,

it would be better to ask for the trade of iron not only for export. Therefore the following site is interresting. So we have some facts:

http://www.maritimeasia.ws/topic/iron.html

No facts but stories:

i was told in Java for maby wootzsteel. I have seen a wootzlike keris blade and so far i remember the pamor was called "urab uraban". But i cant give any proof.

empu kumis

Jens Nordlunde · 30th March 2005, 04:09 PM

So far the discussion has mostly been on export of ingots from south of India and Sri Lanka, I have lately learned from Ann Feuerbach that the caravans travelling on the Silk Road also brought ingots to Arabia. I have been reading about it in several books, one being ‘Persian Steel’ by James Allan and Brian Gilmour, and latest, in a newly acquired book, The Arms and Armour of Arabia, in the 18th-19th and 20th Centuries by Robert Elgood, in Appendix II, ‘Damascus sword manufacture’ he discus the importance if Damascus as a centre for sword making. Arguing that Damascus was rather known for being a centre of sword trade than for sword making, not that there were no sword smith’s in Damascus, but not enough to make it a centre for sword making – he also mentions many other places, known for their quality swords. On page 104 he writes, ‘Contemporary references to weapons in Syria reinforce the view that Indian swords dominated the market’.

I have, in other places, seen hints and references to export of blades from India, but I have never before seen reference to, that the Indian’s should have exported so many blades that they dominated a market as big as the Syrian, which must have been big at the time. When was ‘at the time’? Robert Elgood does not specify it, but from the text I gather, it is from before the Europeans settled in India

So now we have an export of blades and ingots to the west, but what about to the east? We know, from stone sculptures, that kerises were used in the south of India; did they also export keris blades to the east?

The export of blades to the west alone means, that the blade production in south and west India must have been intensive, as they, not only could equip their own armies with blades, but they also had a very big export of them, if they could dominate the Arabian market. This also means, that many of the blades we normally consider being Persian, may very well be made in India, and on arrival decorated in Persia – if that too was not made in India.

Kiai Carita · 26th April 2005, 08:54 PM

[QUOTE=Jens Nordlunde]

So now we have an export of blades and ingots to the west, but what about to the east? We know, from stone sculptures, that kerises were used in the south of India; did they also export keris blades to the east?

I have just obtained an Indonesian Ensiklopedi Keris that says there are no references to keris in India. What stone sculpture are you refering to? Do you have pictures, please?

According to history novelist Pramudya Ananta Toer in the Hindu period Java imported iron from a place called Wullungga which he thinks is Africa. There are many different types of iron in Javanese kerisology, including Cambodia Iron, Indian iron, Chinese iron and also iron from Luwu in Sulawesi.

Rick · 26th April 2005, 09:17 PM

Welcome to the forum Kiai , I believe that Jens was referring to non-keris blades in his post .

On another note I have often heard of 'Sheffield keris' being exported from England to Indonesia / Philippines ; I have yet to see one though .

/Enjoyed Toer's Buru Quartet , very moving and enlightening to a 20th c. Westerner .

Jens Nordlunde · 27th April 2005, 09:04 AM

Hi Kiai,

In the book 'Hindu Arms and Rituals' by Robert Elgood you can see stone sculptures armed with a dagger on page 122-23. Due to copyright I can't show the pictures, but the text under one of the pictures reads: Stone sculpture of Raghunatha Nayaka (1600-34) with sword and kris, in the Rama Temple, Kumbakonam, built c. 1610.

26th April 2005, 08:54 PM	#5
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Iron and Java Keris [QUOTE=Jens Nordlunde] So now we have an export of blades and ingots to the west, but what about to the east? We know, from stone sculptures, that kerises were used in the south of India; did they also export keris blades to the east? I have just obtained an Indonesian Ensiklopedi Keris that says there are no references to keris in India. What stone sculpture are you refering to? Do you have pictures, please? According to history novelist Pramudya Ananta Toer in the Hindu period Java imported iron from a place called Wullungga which he thinks is Africa. There are many different types of iron in Javanese kerisology, including Cambodia Iron, Indian iron, Chinese iron and also iron from Luwu in Sulawesi.

4th March 2005, 02:40 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Mark, Thank you for the information, it is interesting to notice, that not only did the Indians export iron, most likely wootz ingots, to countries to the west, as far as Africa, but they also had an export to the east, which is not common knowledge. Another export route was far more north, in Turkmenistan. In a desert town, in an oasis on the Silk Road, called Merv/Marv, ingots were produced, and sold to the passing merchants. They had neither any iron ore nor any wood, so both had to be ‘imported’, the wood/charcoal from Afghanistan and the ore from further north sailed down, close to Merv on the rivers. You can read more in an article Ann Feuerbach has written in Minerva number 13. issue 4, 2002. Jens

8th March 2005, 06:16 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Have been trying to find info on this same subject, looking in the period of 1300-1600. Sumatra & Borneo had iron mined in this period but unlikely for export. Before 1511, Malacca had Chinese, Sulawesi, & Burma iron for sale. Malacca also had many Indian & Arab traders, so concidering how valuable iron was, I would think it would have had any excess iron from any area sold there. From what I read, there was 2 types of Chinese iron. The type they exported was brittle and poor quality to made weapons. The nickeliferous iron from Sulawesi is claimed to have been perfect for mixing with the Chinese iron.

16th March 2005, 10:09 AM	#3
empu kumis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 17	Hello Kerislovers, it would be better to ask for the trade of iron not only for export. Therefore the following site is interresting. So we have some facts: http://www.maritimeasia.ws/topic/iron.html No facts but stories: i was told in Java for maby wootzsteel. I have seen a wootzlike keris blade and so far i remember the pamor was called "urab uraban". But i cant give any proof. empu kumis

30th March 2005, 04:09 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	So far the discussion has mostly been on export of ingots from south of India and Sri Lanka, I have lately learned from Ann Feuerbach that the caravans travelling on the Silk Road also brought ingots to Arabia. I have been reading about it in several books, one being ‘Persian Steel’ by James Allan and Brian Gilmour, and latest, in a newly acquired book, The Arms and Armour of Arabia, in the 18th-19th and 20th Centuries by Robert Elgood, in Appendix II, ‘Damascus sword manufacture’ he discus the importance if Damascus as a centre for sword making. Arguing that Damascus was rather known for being a centre of sword trade than for sword making, not that there were no sword smith’s in Damascus, but not enough to make it a centre for sword making – he also mentions many other places, known for their quality swords. On page 104 he writes, ‘Contemporary references to weapons in Syria reinforce the view that Indian swords dominated the market’. I have, in other places, seen hints and references to export of blades from India, but I have never before seen reference to, that the Indian’s should have exported so many blades that they dominated a market as big as the Syrian, which must have been big at the time. When was ‘at the time’? Robert Elgood does not specify it, but from the text I gather, it is from before the Europeans settled in India So now we have an export of blades and ingots to the west, but what about to the east? We know, from stone sculptures, that kerises were used in the south of India; did they also export keris blades to the east? The export of blades to the west alone means, that the blade production in south and west India must have been intensive, as they, not only could equip their own armies with blades, but they also had a very big export of them, if they could dominate the Arabian market. This also means, that many of the blades we normally consider being Persian, may very well be made in India, and on arrival decorated in Persia – if that too was not made in India.

26th April 2005, 09:17 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Welcome to the forum Kiai , I believe that Jens was referring to non-keris blades in his post . On another note I have often heard of 'Sheffield keris' being exported from England to Indonesia / Philippines ; I have yet to see one though . /Enjoyed Toer's Buru Quartet , very moving and enlightening to a 20th c. Westerner .

27th April 2005, 09:04 AM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Kiai, In the book 'Hindu Arms and Rituals' by Robert Elgood you can see stone sculptures armed with a dagger on page 122-23. Due to copyright I can't show the pictures, but the text under one of the pictures reads: Stone sculpture of Raghunatha Nayaka (1600-34) with sword and kris, in the Rama Temple, Kumbakonam, built c. 1610.