Thai "katana"

DhaDha · 17th June 2007, 07:58 AM

Amazing. Thank you.

Joe · 17th June 2007, 10:25 AM

Under any other circumstances, I would've assumed that this sword was a modern Chinese fake.

But as long as the documentation can be verified, I suppose it must be authentic. A fitting gift for President Pierce, I suppose.

josh stout · 18th June 2007, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe

Under any other circumstances, I would've assumed that this sword was a modern Chinese fake.

But as long as the documentation can be verified, I suppose it must be authentic. A fitting gift for President Pierce, I suppose.

You sure are right that it matches recent fakes in the pattern weld, etch, and the look of the tip. Franklin Pierce, (a distant relative) is not well regarded by historians so it was indeed a fitting gift.
Josh

Andrew · 18th June 2007, 04:19 PM

Thanks, Mark!

Battara · 18th June 2007, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe

Under any other circumstances, I would've assumed that this sword was a modern Chinese fake.

But as long as the documentation can be verified, I suppose it must be authentic. A fitting gift for President Pierce, I suppose.

I'm with you Joe.

Mark · 20th June 2007, 06:28 PM

The provenance is well-documented. Presidential gifts usually are. It was not recognized by the museum as what it was until 1969, but once identified for what it was, the documentation/provenance was good.

The blade really is exquisite, however the fittings are in my opinion sub-standard in their execution. Perhaps King Mongkut did not think much of Pres. Pierce, either. The workmanship on the metal fittings is rather rough, and do not have a good "fit and finish" with the blade and the scabbard. The scabbard in a couple of places has rough cut marks, for example around the notch cut for the kurikata, and where the chape joins the wood of the scabbard.

Now I want to see what I can do in order to see the one in the National Archives.

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2007, 07:22 PM

Hi Mark,
Thank you so much for posting this and for the historical detail explaining the presence of Japanese swords in Siam. I have heard of the influences of Japanese swords and decoration techniques though primarily trade and diplomatic interaction in the East Indies in 18th century, as well as degree of such influence in swords of Vietnam. I recall in one reference (which I still question but cannot recall details) which showed what appeared a katana and captioned as from India with an odd name. While the India assessment was apparantly incorrect, the sword shown must have been of this group.

It has always been fascinating to me when a weapon as distinctly indiginous as the Japanese katana appears in geographically distant and inconsistant cultural spheres. It seems that even in colonial New England one inventory lists a Japanese sword, and then there is of course the photo of Red Cloud at the end of the 19th century after the 'Indian Wars' with a katana mounted behind him on his wall.

All the best,
Jim

Lew · 20th June 2007, 07:37 PM

I have a problem with this sword. If the they wanted to copy a Japanese katana why would they etch the blade so dark or at all? Mark is there any examples of Burmese or Siamese swords being etched in this way? The blade seems more Indonesian to me as far as etching and pamor is concerned. Sorry but it just does not strike me as old or Siamese. The overall fit and finish is not that good. I would think if you were going to give a gift to a President or king of another country it would be of finer quality than what is pictured.

Lew

Andrew · 20th June 2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I have a problem with this sword. If the they wanted to copy a Japanese katana why would they etch the blade so dark or at all? Mark is there any examples of Burmese or Siamese swords being etched in this way? The blade seems more Indonesian to me as far as etching and pamor is concerned. Sorry but it just does not strike me as old or Siamese. The overall fit and finish is not that good. I would think if you were going to give a gift to a President or king of another country it would be of finer quality than what is pictured.

Lew

The etch is highly unusual for Thai or Burmese swords, in my experience, Lew.

tsubame1 · 23rd June 2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for posting this and for the historical detail explaining the presence of Japanese swords in Siam. I have heard of the influences of Japanese swords and decoration techniques though primarily trade and diplomatic interaction in the East Indies in 18th century,

King of Siam had as his personal guards Samurai from Japan that were hired
as mercenaries. They proved to be extremely efficient and reliable.
They helped to settle a riot. The japanese sword was exported to Siam too.
Both things were earlier then '800

If interested take a look here :

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/...hp/t-8639.html

Scroll down a little and you'll find some interesting inputs.

The sword in question seems to fit the swords inspired to japanese
design, in XIX c. even if I can't say anything about the historical
accuracy as a present to the President. Seems quiet poor to me too...

What makes me wonder is the Tsukamaki (wrapping of handle).
Seems a japanese style. Too japanese, so possibly a fake or later
work.

CharlesS · 23rd June 2007, 01:10 PM

I agree if Mark had not provenanced this I would have ignored it as a fake(and even refused to sit with him at our next Timonium luch!!

), but there seems to be enough evidence here...and just enough oddity to it...to back up the story. I think what to us may seem 'tacky' or crude(fittings, etc.) may have seemed exotic and rare to the Siamese....with that it mind it makes perfect since to me that from their perspective they were sending the President a rare and exotic gift.

The lack of patina here does not really bother me, afterall, this was probably accepted, cataloged, and stowed away, and I am betting it was actually handled very few times...probably more by museum folks than in the 19 Cent.

The thing that I find so fascinating and appealing about it is....what I love about that entire SE Asian region weapons-wise.... and that is the clear fusion of so many different cultures. In this case it may not have produced the most beautiful product, but just the attempt I find interesting.

20th June 2007, 06:28 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	The provenance is well-documented. Presidential gifts usually are. It was not recognized by the museum as what it was until 1969, but once identified for what it was, the documentation/provenance was good. The blade really is exquisite, however the fittings are in my opinion sub-standard in their execution. Perhaps King Mongkut did not think much of Pres. Pierce, either. The workmanship on the metal fittings is rather rough, and do not have a good "fit and finish" with the blade and the scabbard. The scabbard in a couple of places has rough cut marks, for example around the notch cut for the kurikata, and where the chape joins the wood of the scabbard. Now I want to see what I can do in order to see the one in the National Archives. Last edited by Mark; 20th June 2007 at 11:18 PM.

17th June 2007, 07:58 AM	#1
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 176	Amazing. Thank you.

17th June 2007, 10:25 AM	#2
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	Under any other circumstances, I would've assumed that this sword was a modern Chinese fake. But as long as the documentation can be verified, I suppose it must be authentic. A fitting gift for President Pierce, I suppose.

18th June 2007, 04:19 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thanks, Mark!

20th June 2007, 07:22 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Mark, Thank you so much for posting this and for the historical detail explaining the presence of Japanese swords in Siam. I have heard of the influences of Japanese swords and decoration techniques though primarily trade and diplomatic interaction in the East Indies in 18th century, as well as degree of such influence in swords of Vietnam. I recall in one reference (which I still question but cannot recall details) which showed what appeared a katana and captioned as from India with an odd name. While the India assessment was apparantly incorrect, the sword shown must have been of this group. It has always been fascinating to me when a weapon as distinctly indiginous as the Japanese katana appears in geographically distant and inconsistant cultural spheres. It seems that even in colonial New England one inventory lists a Japanese sword, and then there is of course the photo of Red Cloud at the end of the 19th century after the 'Indian Wars' with a katana mounted behind him on his wall. All the best, Jim

20th June 2007, 07:37 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I have a problem with this sword. If the they wanted to copy a Japanese katana why would they etch the blade so dark or at all? Mark is there any examples of Burmese or Siamese swords being etched in this way? The blade seems more Indonesian to me as far as etching and pamor is concerned. Sorry but it just does not strike me as old or Siamese. The overall fit and finish is not that good. I would think if you were going to give a gift to a President or king of another country it would be of finer quality than what is pictured. Lew

23rd June 2007, 01:10 PM	#11
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I agree if Mark had not provenanced this I would have ignored it as a fake(and even refused to sit with him at our next Timonium luch!! ), but there seems to be enough evidence here...and just enough oddity to it...to back up the story. I think what to us may seem 'tacky' or crude(fittings, etc.) may have seemed exotic and rare to the Siamese....with that it mind it makes perfect since to me that from their perspective they were sending the President a rare and exotic gift. The lack of patina here does not really bother me, afterall, this was probably accepted, cataloged, and stowed away, and I am betting it was actually handled very few times...probably more by museum folks than in the 19 Cent. The thing that I find so fascinating and appealing about it is....what I love about that entire SE Asian region weapons-wise.... and that is the clear fusion of so many different cultures. In this case it may not have produced the most beautiful product, but just the attempt I find interesting.