Native American gunstock club

RSWORD · 7th June 2007, 07:12 PM

Thanks for the feedback thusfar. Unfortunately, the pictures simply do not do the piece justice. I think I need to invest in a new camera. The oral provenance provided by the lady I purchased from stated she had acquired it from a museum deacession. There is patina and wear on this piece. The blade does not have any markings. Luckily, I will be meeting Sir Charles and Sir Jose for dinner, a tall Taj Mahal, and then these guys will get to pick this thing apart. I look forward to their opinions after handling the piece and maybe we can come to a consensus or maybe we will be just as confused. In either case, we should be fat and happy from dinner! More to come.

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2007, 05:03 PM

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I became fascinated with these unusual weapons after seeing "Last of the Mohicans" in 1998, and eventually contacted the gentleman who made the examples used in the movie by Russell Means (Jim "Yellow Eagle" Morgan of Tennessee). It seemed extraordinary that the club in the movie was a bright blue and apparantly was considerably larger than the actual examples.
Original detail suggested that these had been in use for centuries (the period was of course French-Indian war c.1754-63), and it is suggested that the weapon would actually have been anachronistic for the Mohicans in this period. I'm not sure if this meant that the form had diffused to the west or was no longer used in a combat sense. It does seem that this form of club with an imbedded blade appeared in numerous forms in diverse tribes in later periods. Most of the examples I have seen are for example Osage c.1820, Pawnee c.1860 and of course many others. Peterson ("American Indian Tomahawks") attributes these mostly to Sioux and Chippewa.

I naturally wondered also if these had been actually fashioned from or in imitation of gunstocks. Most research suggested this may have been simply a free association term applied by either colonial observers or later, it is unclear when the term was first applied or by whom. One suggestion notes these date in early 17th c. which is probably accurate, but it would seem the form may have existed pre-contact. In Burton ("Book of the Sword" p.28) it is noted that the Iroquois used a similar weapon termed (ga-ne-u-ga-o-dus-ha) which apparantly means 'deer horn war club'. This data was apparantly derived from Lewis Morgan in "League of the Iroquois" (Rochester N.Y.1851).
It would seem the use of animal horn for such clubs would be consistant with early tribal weaponry and that post contact the use of metals (most likely of course European weapons) were substituted. The deer horn would naturally have provided the protruding blade in the original weapons.

The suggestion that European musket stock blanks were used to fashion these weapons seems unlikely, as these would have been unwieldy and not well suited for a weapon whose general form, in my impression, seems established precontact. It is however known that Europeans did indeed use guns as clubs once discharged and especially when overrun, so the suggestion that Native Americans witnessed this would have seemed plausible in the suggestions. This situation with vulnerability after the discharge and lack of time to reload of course led to the development of the bayonet, and possibly to the comment in one source that noted that the French soldiers in America would often imbed knife blades in thier muskets (suggesting the imbedding of blades in these clubs from Native American observation). This reference probably derived from the use of bayonets.

In considering the imbedding of blades in weapons such as clubs I also thought of the early Aztec war clubs which obsidian pieces situated in rows in the 'mahquahuitl' for example. I wondered if this practice might have diffused as far north as the Iroquian culture. Returning to Burton (op.cit. p.49) he does cite Morgan's 1851 reference again and it is noted that opening burial mounds in the far west, rows of flint lying side by side in regular order probably had been fastened in sticks or swords like the Mexican (Aztec).

It is uncertain exactly how this form of weapon originated or subsequently diffused, however the material I have collected here may at least give some basis for plausible theories. I have only written this in order to collect the material I have discovered so far, and to share it with those interested in learning more on these interesting weapons, and in hopes that others will pursue the topic further. As always, I very much look forward to ideas, observations and other material that will either refute or support what I have included here.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2007, 05:38 PM

Hi Rick,
I wanted to talk more on your war club and outside the text of the general research I just posted. Your example is a beauty! and not having expertise on authenticating these, which requires specialization in large degree, I just wanted to add observations.

The painted decoration and overall wood seems varnished or oiled, and I am wondering if this might suggest at least latter 19th c. I'm not sure if the tribes using these in earlier periods applied painted decoration on weapons, though of course paints were used on thier own person, horses, tipis etc. I think in degree though, certain colored lines may have been applied on bows and arrows. I wonder how thier paints were made, and if this decoration is consistant with that type paint. I guess I'm thinking forensically

After the advent of Buffalo Bills wild west spectacles and so on, it seems that 'Indian' paraphenalia became quite popular to the public, however it would seem that the most obvious items would have been the cliche' items, especially for example, tomahawks. It would not seem to me that a weapon relatively not known to the average citizen would have been produced in the trade or souvenier industry of the times. Possibly this may have been a ceremonial piece produced in tribal sphere using the commercial materials available from the increasing settler population?

As always, you find fascinating pieces!!! and now to find something of this quality Native American! Outstanding.

All the best,
Jim

Battara · 10th June 2007, 07:55 PM

Rsword brought this to my house over the weekend and under high magnification the paint is actually a mixture of water based dye and paint that is obsorped inti the wood. IT is darker than the pictures and has patina, making me think that this is actually older and possibly mid-1800s and not later reservation period. The blade is also old and hand forged.

Jim McDougall · 10th June 2007, 09:34 PM

Hi Battara,
Thank you for the update, I was hoping this thread wouldnt end.
Your observations sound right on, and as I had suggested this item probably was from plains tribes in the earlier period you note. As I noted, it is unlikely this would have come from the 'souvenier' period post Wild Bill

and this would indeed be an authentic piece......fantastic!

Thank you for pointing out the type of paint also. In more reading I discovered more on the painting being consistant with these also.

All best regards,
Jim

CharlesS · 11th June 2007, 04:42 AM

I had a chance to study this one with Battara and Rsword this past weekend in Louisville, and my position on it has changes 180 degrees. The patination and paint ...but especially the patination... make me sure this is no new piece.
Rsword will readily admit that his pics do not do it justice, and he's right. I am really not sure any pics would do it justice...this is just one of those really unique pieces you almost have to hold or see in person to appreciate. It's a real gem!

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2007, 03:16 PM

Outstanding Charles!!! Thank you for the update also, and now that you guys have all gotten to handle this piece, it seems Rick has once again struck gold!!!

Rascal!!!

All the best guys,
Jim

8th June 2007, 05:03 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I became fascinated with these unusual weapons after seeing "Last of the Mohicans" in 1998, and eventually contacted the gentleman who made the examples used in the movie by Russell Means (Jim "Yellow Eagle" Morgan of Tennessee). It seemed extraordinary that the club in the movie was a bright blue and apparantly was considerably larger than the actual examples. Original detail suggested that these had been in use for centuries (the period was of course French-Indian war c.1754-63), and it is suggested that the weapon would actually have been anachronistic for the Mohicans in this period. I'm not sure if this meant that the form had diffused to the west or was no longer used in a combat sense. It does seem that this form of club with an imbedded blade appeared in numerous forms in diverse tribes in later periods. Most of the examples I have seen are for example Osage c.1820, Pawnee c.1860 and of course many others. Peterson ("American Indian Tomahawks") attributes these mostly to Sioux and Chippewa. I naturally wondered also if these had been actually fashioned from or in imitation of gunstocks. Most research suggested this may have been simply a free association term applied by either colonial observers or later, it is unclear when the term was first applied or by whom. One suggestion notes these date in early 17th c. which is probably accurate, but it would seem the form may have existed pre-contact. In Burton ("Book of the Sword" p.28) it is noted that the Iroquois used a similar weapon termed (ga-ne-u-ga-o-dus-ha) which apparantly means 'deer horn war club'. This data was apparantly derived from Lewis Morgan in "League of the Iroquois" (Rochester N.Y.1851). It would seem the use of animal horn for such clubs would be consistant with early tribal weaponry and that post contact the use of metals (most likely of course European weapons) were substituted. The deer horn would naturally have provided the protruding blade in the original weapons. The suggestion that European musket stock blanks were used to fashion these weapons seems unlikely, as these would have been unwieldy and not well suited for a weapon whose general form, in my impression, seems established precontact. It is however known that Europeans did indeed use guns as clubs once discharged and especially when overrun, so the suggestion that Native Americans witnessed this would have seemed plausible in the suggestions. This situation with vulnerability after the discharge and lack of time to reload of course led to the development of the bayonet, and possibly to the comment in one source that noted that the French soldiers in America would often imbed knife blades in thier muskets (suggesting the imbedding of blades in these clubs from Native American observation). This reference probably derived from the use of bayonets. In considering the imbedding of blades in weapons such as clubs I also thought of the early Aztec war clubs which obsidian pieces situated in rows in the 'mahquahuitl' for example. I wondered if this practice might have diffused as far north as the Iroquian culture. Returning to Burton (op.cit. p.49) he does cite Morgan's 1851 reference again and it is noted that opening burial mounds in the far west, rows of flint lying side by side in regular order probably had been fastened in sticks or swords like the Mexican (Aztec). It is uncertain exactly how this form of weapon originated or subsequently diffused, however the material I have collected here may at least give some basis for plausible theories. I have only written this in order to collect the material I have discovered so far, and to share it with those interested in learning more on these interesting weapons, and in hopes that others will pursue the topic further. As always, I very much look forward to ideas, observations and other material that will either refute or support what I have included here. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th June 2007 at 05:44 PM.

7th June 2007, 07:12 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Thanks for the feedback thusfar. Unfortunately, the pictures simply do not do the piece justice. I think I need to invest in a new camera. The oral provenance provided by the lady I purchased from stated she had acquired it from a museum deacession. There is patina and wear on this piece. The blade does not have any markings. Luckily, I will be meeting Sir Charles and Sir Jose for dinner, a tall Taj Mahal, and then these guys will get to pick this thing apart. I look forward to their opinions after handling the piece and maybe we can come to a consensus or maybe we will be just as confused. In either case, we should be fat and happy from dinner! More to come.

8th June 2007, 05:38 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Rick, I wanted to talk more on your war club and outside the text of the general research I just posted. Your example is a beauty! and not having expertise on authenticating these, which requires specialization in large degree, I just wanted to add observations. The painted decoration and overall wood seems varnished or oiled, and I am wondering if this might suggest at least latter 19th c. I'm not sure if the tribes using these in earlier periods applied painted decoration on weapons, though of course paints were used on thier own person, horses, tipis etc. I think in degree though, certain colored lines may have been applied on bows and arrows. I wonder how thier paints were made, and if this decoration is consistant with that type paint. I guess I'm thinking forensically After the advent of Buffalo Bills wild west spectacles and so on, it seems that 'Indian' paraphenalia became quite popular to the public, however it would seem that the most obvious items would have been the cliche' items, especially for example, tomahawks. It would not seem to me that a weapon relatively not known to the average citizen would have been produced in the trade or souvenier industry of the times. Possibly this may have been a ceremonial piece produced in tribal sphere using the commercial materials available from the increasing settler population? As always, you find fascinating pieces!!! and now to find something of this quality Native American! Outstanding. All the best, Jim

10th June 2007, 07:55 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Rsword brought this to my house over the weekend and under high magnification the paint is actually a mixture of water based dye and paint that is obsorped inti the wood. IT is darker than the pictures and has patina, making me think that this is actually older and possibly mid-1800s and not later reservation period. The blade is also old and hand forged.

10th June 2007, 09:34 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Battara, Thank you for the update, I was hoping this thread wouldnt end. Your observations sound right on, and as I had suggested this item probably was from plains tribes in the earlier period you note. As I noted, it is unlikely this would have come from the 'souvenier' period post Wild Bill and this would indeed be an authentic piece......fantastic! Thank you for pointing out the type of paint also. In more reading I discovered more on the painting being consistant with these also. All best regards, Jim

11th June 2007, 04:42 AM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I had a chance to study this one with Battara and Rsword this past weekend in Louisville, and my position on it has changes 180 degrees. The patination and paint ...but especially the patination... make me sure this is no new piece. Rsword will readily admit that his pics do not do it justice, and he's right. I am really not sure any pics would do it justice...this is just one of those really unique pieces you almost have to hold or see in person to appreciate. It's a real gem!

11th June 2007, 03:16 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Outstanding Charles!!! Thank you for the update also, and now that you guys have all gotten to handle this piece, it seems Rick has once again struck gold!!! Rascal!!! All the best guys, Jim