Native American gunstock club

Andrew · 5th June 2007, 04:08 AM

Native American weapons have become a quiet passion of mine in recent years, Rick. Unfortunately, the prices on these things combined with the proliferation of fakes and rarity of genuine items have prevented me from aquiring any.

I'd be terrified to spend what genuine stuff commands for fear of learning a very painful lesson. Consequently, I haven't handled or looked at nearly enough of these to have my opinion count for very much, so keep that in mind.

Gunstock clubs like yours are, as I'm sure you're aware, most often attributed to the eastern woodland tribes. Similar clubs were used by various Plains tribes, but they were much less massive, with generally thinner profiles.

The blades, when present, were usually "trade" blades manufactured in Europe or, quite often, by skilled American blacksmiths. Your blade is exactly what I would expect to see on one of these. Are there any marks at all on your blade?

Any provenance supplied by the seller?

It's next to impossible to really get a feel for this lovely thing just from photos. If genuine, it looks remarkably well-cared for. Any subtle signs of wear around the handle? How about on the striking areas? I would expect to see signs of use (or at least re-finishing) on such a weapon, particularly since it isn't all tarted-up.

Jim McDougall · 5th June 2007, 01:09 PM

Rsword,
What amazing timing! Lately I've become pretty preoccupied with Native American cultural study and some of the weaponry used, but completely agree with Andrew, pretty scary thinking of acquiring examples with the repro stuff out there.
I know that years ago I became intrigued by the interesting gunstock club used in "Last of the Mohicans" and did some research.....wish I had my notes on it here!! I remember speaking with the guy who made the examples for the movie..I think he was in Tennessee. Also remember corresponding with Norm Flayderman....he is 'the man' when it comes to Americana!!!! I think he knows more on Native American weaponry than anybody and of course has written considerably on the subject.

I would really like to see more discussion on Native American weapons here! Sort of our own home ethnographic weapons yet seldom discussed!

All the best,
Jim

CharlesS · 5th June 2007, 03:19 PM

To me Rick's club's wood looks awfully machined, and the paint looks like an oil base rather than a more muted earth tone. But hard to tell from the pics.

I collected repro Native American weapons for years for display in my history and religion classes(...wished I coulda used 'em in class a couple of times

), and I can tell you that the some of the repros out there have an astonishingly authentic look to them. Many Native American artists reproduce these weapons as, just that, art, and they use authentic styles and materials. I wish I had kept pics of some of my old stuff or some examples for here, but I sold them all to a tourist trading post in Oklahoma.

About 10 years ago some of the props used in Dances with Wolves were sold and they may have been props, but they were "the real thing" in every regard, just not old. I was lucky enough to get a ball head war club from the movie, but again sold it.......for blades.

My point is that I have seen enough of these to know that I would NEVER, EVER buy a piece that I assumed was pre-20th Cent. without the input of a real expert.

Henk · 5th June 2007, 10:14 PM

I really like this stuff, but i cann't say a thing about it.

Even when it is a repro, it is a very nice club. But my first impression on this club is the same as CharlesS. I don't think it is hand made.

Just like Jim I would also like to see more of native american weapons and learn from it. Even for an European it is a very interesting subject.

RSWORD · 6th June 2007, 06:51 PM

I think it is wise to lean towards precaution when reviewing these items. Unfortunately, my pictures really do not do the piece justice and I think it is hard to make assessments simply from pictures, unless of course someone says, "hey, that is regularly sold on such a such website." Some online research yielded the following mid-19th examples for comparison purposes.

http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/haw...arclub-002.jpg

http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/haw...arclub-003.jpg

Now, for my education and from these additional pictures please tell me how to tell the difference between machined and hand made?

Lew · 6th June 2007, 08:47 PM

Question

Does the blade have any markings on it? I would think if the blades on these clubs were made either in Europe or the USA way back in the 1800s they would be stamped with some type of mark?

Lew

Tim Simmons · 6th June 2007, 09:08 PM

A couple of questions. Are these based on a gun stock. Was this form made before a frequent supply of guns. The examples I have in books all sugest they are from the early 1800s- 1820 . Which may suggest it is possible that they are not actual fighting weapons? when compered to other Wood Land clubs and plains weapons. Many of the real fighting weapons do seem to look a little more like the big knobkerries from SA. Surely the supply of guns in the Eastern Wood lands by the 1800s made these more as prestige items. It would be really nice if this was the real thing, I do not like the angle cut at the handle.

5th June 2007, 04:08 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Native American weapons have become a quiet passion of mine in recent years, Rick. Unfortunately, the prices on these things combined with the proliferation of fakes and rarity of genuine items have prevented me from aquiring any. I'd be terrified to spend what genuine stuff commands for fear of learning a very painful lesson. Consequently, I haven't handled or looked at nearly enough of these to have my opinion count for very much, so keep that in mind. Gunstock clubs like yours are, as I'm sure you're aware, most often attributed to the eastern woodland tribes. Similar clubs were used by various Plains tribes, but they were much less massive, with generally thinner profiles. The blades, when present, were usually "trade" blades manufactured in Europe or, quite often, by skilled American blacksmiths. Your blade is exactly what I would expect to see on one of these. Are there any marks at all on your blade? Any provenance supplied by the seller? It's next to impossible to really get a feel for this lovely thing just from photos. If genuine, it looks remarkably well-cared for. Any subtle signs of wear around the handle? How about on the striking areas? I would expect to see signs of use (or at least re-finishing) on such a weapon, particularly since it isn't all tarted-up.

5th June 2007, 01:09 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Rsword, What amazing timing! Lately I've become pretty preoccupied with Native American cultural study and some of the weaponry used, but completely agree with Andrew, pretty scary thinking of acquiring examples with the repro stuff out there. I know that years ago I became intrigued by the interesting gunstock club used in "Last of the Mohicans" and did some research.....wish I had my notes on it here!! I remember speaking with the guy who made the examples for the movie..I think he was in Tennessee. Also remember corresponding with Norm Flayderman....he is 'the man' when it comes to Americana!!!! I think he knows more on Native American weaponry than anybody and of course has written considerably on the subject. I would really like to see more discussion on Native American weapons here! Sort of our own home ethnographic weapons yet seldom discussed! All the best, Jim

5th June 2007, 03:19 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	To me Rick's club's wood looks awfully machined, and the paint looks like an oil base rather than a more muted earth tone. But hard to tell from the pics. I collected repro Native American weapons for years for display in my history and religion classes(...wished I coulda used 'em in class a couple of times ), and I can tell you that the some of the repros out there have an astonishingly authentic look to them. Many Native American artists reproduce these weapons as, just that, art, and they use authentic styles and materials. I wish I had kept pics of some of my old stuff or some examples for here, but I sold them all to a tourist trading post in Oklahoma. About 10 years ago some of the props used in Dances with Wolves were sold and they may have been props, but they were "the real thing" in every regard, just not old. I was lucky enough to get a ball head war club from the movie, but again sold it.......for blades. My point is that I have seen enough of these to know that I would NEVER, EVER buy a piece that I assumed was pre-20th Cent. without the input of a real expert.

5th June 2007, 10:14 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I really like this stuff, but i cann't say a thing about it. Even when it is a repro, it is a very nice club. But my first impression on this club is the same as CharlesS. I don't think it is hand made. Just like Jim I would also like to see more of native american weapons and learn from it. Even for an European it is a very interesting subject.

6th June 2007, 06:51 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	I think it is wise to lean towards precaution when reviewing these items. Unfortunately, my pictures really do not do the piece justice and I think it is hard to make assessments simply from pictures, unless of course someone says, "hey, that is regularly sold on such a such website." Some online research yielded the following mid-19th examples for comparison purposes. http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/haw...arclub-002.jpg http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/haw...arclub-003.jpg Now, for my education and from these additional pictures please tell me how to tell the difference between machined and hand made?

6th June 2007, 08:47 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Question Does the blade have any markings on it? I would think if the blades on these clubs were made either in Europe or the USA way back in the 1800s they would be stamped with some type of mark? Lew

6th June 2007, 09:08 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	A couple of questions. Are these based on a gun stock. Was this form made before a frequent supply of guns. The examples I have in books all sugest they are from the early 1800s- 1820 . Which may suggest it is possible that they are not actual fighting weapons? when compered to other Wood Land clubs and plains weapons. Many of the real fighting weapons do seem to look a little more like the big knobkerries from SA. Surely the supply of guns in the Eastern Wood lands by the 1800s made these more as prestige items. It would be really nice if this was the real thing, I do not like the angle cut at the handle.