Indo-Persian knife for comment

Rick · 6th December 2004, 10:16 PM

Yes , I agree , it's hard to get no light reflection at all .
Cloudy bright days are best for this lighting .

Photoshop or Irfanview could help manipulate the picture to accentuate the patterning .

ariel · 7th December 2004, 12:09 AM

I have a friend from Uzbekistan and he told me that such a knife is called Pichok.
The similarity with the Turkish name Bichaq is obvious and perfectly understandable: Uzbeks are descended from Turkic-Mongol tribes and share the same ethnic roots with the "traditional" Turks. They have adopted their name in honor of one of the Altyn Orda Khans, Ozbek. By the way, this is a very popular boy's name in modern Turkey.
Tajiks are native Central Asians and are close to Persians. They are still smarting from the devastation inflicted upon them by the Mongols and view Uzbeks as "intruders"; when talking to a Tajik, do NOT call him Uzbek!

GuyM · 7th December 2004, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yes , I agree , it's hard to get no light reflection at all .
Cloudy bright days are best for this lighting .

Definitely, I took all my pictures on cloudy days, we've got a lot of them this time of the year around here :-)

Anyway, here's the new lot. It's hard to get a picture of the whole blade with the wootz patterns coming out decently, but for the real fans, I've reverted to plan B: high def scanner. The result is not bad at all, if a little bright (but this can be mended with Photoshop), however, the 1200 dpi scan is a whoping 20Mb, so if someone's got a place for storing this file on a server, I'd be happy to upload it there, this forum's site won't take it.

I hope the new pictures will give you a better idea of this very nice wootz pattern. Personally, I could not find any 'structure' to it, no ladder or anything like that, just a stream of flowing water.

Anyone's got an idea of the age of the piece?

Thanks!

Rick · 7th December 2004, 08:55 PM

Great pictures Guy !
Thanks very much .

I love the pattern .
I wonder if it has been manipulated by the smith .
Sham wootz possibly ?

Comments ?

Jeff D · 7th December 2004, 10:50 PM

Beautiful Guy.

Nothing sham about this pattern! My best guess is 19th century (thin lines lighter contrast etc...). Lots of activity, very nice indeed.

Jeff

Rick · 7th December 2004, 11:01 PM

Could you suggest a type of wootz for this intriguing pattern ?

Jeff D · 7th December 2004, 11:12 PM

Hi Rick,

I would be seriously deluding myself if I thought i was qualified to acurately catagorize all wootz patterns, someone who has handled hundereds or even thousands of these pieces is needed (Philip, ham etc..). My best guess is this is "Qum" which Philip describes as medium colouration, lots of activity, tight swirls almost grainy. As always I will be more than happy to be corrected.

All the Best,
Jeff

GuyM · 8th December 2004, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if it has been manipulated by the smith .

I personaly don't think it has been, it seems very 'natural' if you know what I mean. But then this is my first wootz blade, and I've had only a few others in my hands.

Is there an ''encyclopedia" of wootz patterns somewhere other than in a few knowledgeable people's memory? I'd be very interested in having a look at it. If not, is it conceivable to start a new thread inviting people to contribute pictures of wootz patterns, identified or not?

Thanks

Rick · 8th December 2004, 08:01 PM

Guy,
There's always ON DAMASCUS STEEL by Leo S. Figiel MD .
There are a lot of pictures of different patterns in this book .
A starting place for Wootz study and worth buying if you don't already have it .

Michel · 8th December 2004, 10:19 PM

Guy,
in your dad's library is the book : "Damascus steel" by Manfred Sachse with several type of Damas ( european and asian)
In the book : Bei Schah Emir und Khan" by Balsinger and Klay are also at least 5 types of Asian damas. I attache a scan of the latter picture.

If you come at home you'll have a better look !!
Your dad

Michel

GuyM · 9th December 2004, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Guy,
There's always ON DAMASCUS STEEL by Leo S. Figiel MD .

Thanks for the pointer!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Guy,
in your dad's library is the book : "Damascus steel" by Manfred Sachse
In the book : "Bei Schah Emir und Khan" by Balsinger and Klay

I should have remembered those!
Thanks dad

ingelred · 9th December 2004, 08:48 AM

I have seen this kind of pattern in one of the books from Herman Historica.
In this book this pattern is referred to as net damascus.
The books can be found here:

http://www.hermann-historica.com/

Look for reference books.

Greetings, Helge

7th December 2004, 08:55 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Great Work ! Great pictures Guy ! Thanks very much . I love the pattern . I wonder if it has been manipulated by the smith . Sham wootz possibly ? Comments ?

6th December 2004, 10:16 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Yes , I agree , it's hard to get no light reflection at all . Cloudy bright days are best for this lighting . Photoshop or Irfanview could help manipulate the picture to accentuate the patterning .

7th December 2004, 12:09 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have a friend from Uzbekistan and he told me that such a knife is called Pichok. The similarity with the Turkish name Bichaq is obvious and perfectly understandable: Uzbeks are descended from Turkic-Mongol tribes and share the same ethnic roots with the "traditional" Turks. They have adopted their name in honor of one of the Altyn Orda Khans, Ozbek. By the way, this is a very popular boy's name in modern Turkey. Tajiks are native Central Asians and are close to Persians. They are still smarting from the devastation inflicted upon them by the Mongols and view Uzbeks as "intruders"; when talking to a Tajik, do NOT call him Uzbek!

7th December 2004, 10:50 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Beautiful Guy. Nothing sham about this pattern! My best guess is 19th century (thin lines lighter contrast etc...). Lots of activity, very nice indeed. Jeff

7th December 2004, 11:01 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Could you suggest a type of wootz for this intriguing pattern ?

7th December 2004, 11:12 PM	#7
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Rick, I would be seriously deluding myself if I thought i was qualified to acurately catagorize all wootz patterns, someone who has handled hundereds or even thousands of these pieces is needed (Philip, ham etc..). My best guess is this is "Qum" which Philip describes as medium colouration, lots of activity, tight swirls almost grainy. As always I will be more than happy to be corrected. All the Best, Jeff

8th December 2004, 08:01 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Guy, There's always ON DAMASCUS STEEL by Leo S. Figiel MD . There are a lot of pictures of different patterns in this book . A starting place for Wootz study and worth buying if you don't already have it .

8th December 2004, 10:19 PM	#10
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Guy, in your dad's library is the book : "Damascus steel" by Manfred Sachse with several type of Damas ( european and asian) In the book : Bei Schah Emir und Khan" by Balsinger and Klay are also at least 5 types of Asian damas. I attache a scan of the latter picture. If you come at home you'll have a better look !! Your dad Michel

9th December 2004, 08:48 AM	#12
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	I have seen this kind of pattern in one of the books from Herman Historica. In this book this pattern is referred to as net damascus. The books can be found here: http://www.hermann-historica.com/ Look for reference books. Greetings, Helge