Pics: Snake-like Curves

[Alam Shah]

Nice, I've seen Pengging examples from Hidayat's collection, (in pictures only) . On a personal level, although these might look intimidating, I find these blades and spear points to be ineffective as weapons. Perhaps mostly used as ceremonial?

[Mans]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Nice, I've seen Pengging examples from Hidayat's collection, (in pictures only) . On a personal level, although these might look intimidating, I find these blades and spear points to be ineffective as weapons. Perhaps mostly used as ceremonial?

Hi friends....

Just want to join, here I posted another keris with luk which called "Rengkol" as Gonjowulungs spears.

And I think the keris with luk still can be used for weapon. In my mind, the keris with luk more suitable for weapon because it can make wider rip on body/skin when it used to stuck. That because from first luk at the point to bottom side made more wider. When we stuck the keris to the body, every luk will make wider rip on the skin.

Different with straight keris which has simple form. But stright keris more focus to the target and make a dirrect stab. In the other hand, the keris with luk look stronger/rubbery because it has luk which seems like a spring when we used to stuck. I think it shown that the mPu on past period had thought about weapon structures, strength, and capabilities, etc...

Thats just my opinion

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Mans

... And I think the keris with luk still can be used for weapon. In my mind, the keris with luk more suitable for weapon because it can make wider rip on body/skin when it used to stuck. That because from first luk at the point to bottom side made more wider. When we stuck the keris to the body, every luk will make wider rip on the skin.

Different with straight keris which has simple form. But stright keris more focus to the target and make a dirrect stab. In the other hand, the keris with luk look stronger/rubbery because it has luk which seems like a spring when we used to stuck. I think it shown that the mPu on past period had thought about weapon structures, strength, and capabilities, etc...

Thats just my opinion

Hi, I'm speaking specifically to Pengging style of luks (luk Rengkol / Sarpa Nyander) which is exaggerated.

Technically, with its slender profile, I doubt it makes an effective weapon.
In a one-on-one encounter, an opponent could possibly deflect an attack quite effectively, with capability to disarm the keris wielder, with a piece of cloth/clothing.

When facing multiple opponents, this type of blade tends to get stuck when stabbed. Retraction might be slower, worse if it get stuck in between the victim's ribs. If targeted at the lower abdomen area, it might not penetrate the opponent's 'ikat pinggang' or the blade might 'buckle' due to its 'fragile' looking nature.

It might be more for aesthetics reasons rather than practicality, imho.

My question: Where lies the strength of these Pengging-specific luk blades?

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Mans

Hi friends....

Just want to join, here I posted another keris with luk which called "Rengkol" as Gonjowulungs spears.

Wah, Mas Hidayat,
I am very very interested in the "kelengan" (black only) keris. The garap is so nice. From which tangguh, mas?

Ganjawulung

[Mans]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Wah, Mas Hidayat,
I am very very interested in the "kelengan" (black only) keris. The garap is so nice. From which tangguh, mas?

Ganjawulung

Thanks, Pak Ganjawulung.
Actually me my self not too sure about the tangguh of my keris .
So, would you please give me an advice. Did it the Pengging keris too ?
Here I send more pictures.
Thanks.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

pengging or pakubuanan???

[ganjawulung]

Dear Mr Hidayat and All,

Tangguh is not a certainty. The word itself shows, that the meaning of "nangguh" (in keris term) is "guessing the period of making, based on specific details of the keris or spear"). If I say: "My keris or spear bears tangguh Pajajaran or Pengging, or Majapahit", once must be understood to as "supposed to be made in Pajajaran period" or possibly, "supposed to have Pajajaran style,". Many kerises, supposed with certain tangguh, actually was made in the different period after.

From time to time, "knowledge" on tangguh is an oral and visual knowledge. One learns (or knows) tangguh, from seeing blades or spears. Sometimes from written opinion in the past, but really difficult to imagine the reality, without seeing examples. What I've known about tangguh, also seeing from thousands of kerises from hundreds of keris owners. Either they were keris collectors, or royal family (kerabat keraton), or at least from people which has collection of old heirlooms. You may find such source in Surakarta (Solo) or Yogyakarta.

"Nangguh duwung" (guessing the period of making the keris), is always debatable. In my experience, other people can be other opinion on tangguh. But at least, there are certain compromises in specific details, like specific luks, the shape of ganja, the shape of kembang kacang, the sogokan (pajang style, if I'm not mistaken, has a specific form of 'bawang sebungkul' -- form of sogokan base in the keris, not form of pamor --), and tangguh pengging with very specific luks usually (not certain) not more than five luks.

Some Mataram style, has rengkol luks too. (See pictures below, spears supposed to be from tangguh Mataram Senopaten, or Senopaten style at least). One decides tangguh, also from the iron of the blade. Tangguh Sedayu (actually, Sedayu is the noble name of empu Supamandrangi in Majapahit period or he wore name Empu Pitrang in Blambangan. Sedayu, very wellknown of its specific 'black' iron which is only known by seeing it.

Like Pengging, was not a period of a kingdom. Pengging was only a Kadipaten in the period of Demak Islamic Kingdom. Pengging under Ki Ageng Pengging (formerly Ki Kebo Kenanga), disobeyed the King of Demak as a result of 'different aliran of Islam' with Demak -- see 'stories' on Syech Siti Djenar -- and Pajang period, is a very short Kingdom after Demak, but just before Mataram (Sutowijoyo, or Panembahan Senopati).

From which tangguh? Let's guessing your keris, afterwards...

Ganjawulung

[Mans]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Mr Hidayat and All,

Tangguh is not a certainty. The word itself shows, that the meaning of "nangguh" (in keris term) is "guessing the period of making, based on specific details of the keris or spear").......
........
From which tangguh? Let's guessing your keris, afterwards...

Ganjawulung

Actually I still waiting for your expertise regarding my keris, Pak Ganjawulung.
Raden Usman had gave his opinion (thanks), and perhaps it can be a Pengging or Pakubuwanan keris. But I'm not sure, because the ricikans form of my keris not shown the Pengging keris. I think the Greneng and Jenggot too sharp and the ada-ada also sharp too for Pengging .

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Nice, I've seen Pengging examples from Hidayat's collection, (in pictures only) . On a personal level, although these might look intimidating, I find these blades and spear points to be ineffective as weapons. Perhaps mostly used as ceremonial?

Dear Shahrial,
What I learned from Javanese tangguh, is mainly "style that differ from other period". So it was a matter of identity. That is the most important. From the style of weapon, and of course the specific style of sheath, one can differ where did the pusaka's holder from... (IMO, and no "direct source")

To learn tangguh, is not a study of just reading. But also seeing, looking, watching carefully thousands of blades with different styles. After "jam terbang" (Oops, flying hours? Help my English, please...) advanced, then you may be able to know -- or at least to predict -- from with style.

Pengging, very special in luks. Thin like Majapahit style, but good iron, good "garap" (working), although only for short period... (I will add more, soon)

Ganjawulung

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial,
What I learned from Javanese tangguh, is mainly "style that differ from other period". So it was a matter of identity. That is the most important. From the style of weapon, and of course the specific style of sheath, one can differ where did the pusaka's holder from... (IMO, and no "direct source")

Thank you for your input.

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

To learn tangguh, is not a study of just reading. But also seeing, looking, watching carefully thousands of blades with different styles. After "jam terbang" (Oops, flying hours? Help my English, please...) advanced, then you may be able to know -- or at least to predict -- from with style.

I do not learn tangguh or claim to learn. I'm just pointing out the stylistic differences compared with pieces from other period. Those that I've seen had been identified by those whom are familiar with tangguh. So I'm not guessing, in that sense.

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Pengging, very special in luks. Thin like Majapahit style, but good iron, good "garap" (working), although only for short period... (I will add more, soon)...

Hi Ganja, I agree Pengging does have special luk form... that part I've seen from Hidayat's pieces. It may have whatever you've said, but how does it fare physically?

My earlier comment is just my personal observation and opinion.
My opinion still stands, unless it could be persuaded otherwise.

[ganjawulung]

Dear Shahrial (part 2),
I like to have a keris from "short period" tangguh, like from Kesultanan Pajang (1551-1582) and of course from Pengging period (after Kesultanan Demak 1480-1550) and before 1582 Mataram Period. Usually, the short period has a very specific type. Like Pajang, has a special type in the base of two sogokan. (I can't say it with word. One must see the blade).

Pengging, has a "luk rengkol" with good iron, and slim model. The first spear in the picture above, is very strong. (With a "gigir sapi" or say it, back bone in the middle of the blade), strong enough to stab somebody. The Pengging style (picture 2), is also strong although it looks slim (but not to thin, with good iron).

Are those spears only for ceremonial purpose? I don't know. But in my opinion, the slim blade is quite strong to stab somebody... You will try?

Ganjawulung

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Shahrial (part 2),
I like to have a keris from "short period" tangguh, like from Kesultanan Pajang (1551-1582) and of course from Pengging period (after Kesultanan Demak 1480-1550) and before 1582 Mataram Period. Usually, the short period has a very specific type. Like Pajang, has a special type in the base of two sogokan. (I can't say it with word. One must see the blade).

The short period is probably the reason why there isn't enough time to create more styles... Maybe, if it's not too much to ask, could you share with us, in pictures, maybe we can learn something.

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Pengging, has a "luk rengkol" with good iron, and slim model. The first spear in the picture above, is very strong. (With a "gigir sapi" or say it, back bone in the middle of the blade), strong enough to stab somebody. The Pengging style (picture 2), is also strong although it looks slim (but not to thin, with good iron).

Are those spears only for ceremonial purpose? I don't know. But in my opinion, the slim blade is quite strong to stab somebody... You will try?

Ganjawulung

Maybe you could ship it over and I'll try stabbing myself with it. If you don't hear from me, hmmm... I might be gone, otherwise, your blade might be damaged.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

...Maybe you could ship it over and I'll try stabbing myself with it. If you don't hear from me, hmmm... I might be gone, otherwise, your blade might be damaged.

Ha, ha, ha, but I wouldn't ship it to you...

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Ha, ha, ha, but I wouldn't ship it to you...

Just kidding ya... don't take it to heart, ok. I prefer constructive opinions... You have very nice pieces. The 'Pengging' pieces are not many and hard to come by (real ones that is).

I do welcome more info on 'Pengging' period pieces.

[ganjawulung]

Dear Shahrial and All,

These pictures below, showing spear point of tangguh Pajajaran (The Hindhu Kingdom, the ancestor of Islamic Kingdom of Cirebon). It wears dhapur (people called it) "kuntul ngantuk" (sleepy bird, a kind of paddy field bird with long beak). Tangguh Pajajaran, usually has a good iron, good pamor (Pajajaran Kingdom has good relation -- if I'm not mistaken -- with Portuguese). But not Pajajaran awal (in the beginning of Pajajaran), which usually not quite good iron. Nearly budo iron in kudi and kujang...

I don't know whether you see a "raja gundala" in this Pajajaran spear or not.. It was formerly owned by a dukun (practitioner) in Central Java. And the dhukun had died, his son sold the spear to me...

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Dear Shahrial and All,

Want more? This is a very humble piece, a spear which (supposed) bears tangguh Mataram (Islam, not old Mataram Hindhu) period between 1582-1749. The dhapur is "korowelang", a kind name of lokal snake...

Ganjawulung