Pics: Jawa Demam Hilts

VVV · 25th May 2007, 09:13 AM

Hi all,

Nice collection of makara hilts.
Thanks Shahrial for the lighter picture. I couldn't see any scales before.
On the illustration from Indonesian Ornamental Design actually that is a rip off too from the older book with the same name by van der Hoop, printed 1949 in "Bandoeng" by the "Koninklijk Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen".
Another style of Makara hilt will be published in Karsten's coming new book.
We were at an auction together and he picked up a much chubbier version than the ones in this thread.

Michael

ganjawulung · 25th May 2007, 09:45 AM

Are these also derivations of Makara's motive? These six hilts are typical Cirebonese, and also Tegal hilts (Northern Coast of Central Java). They are abstraction of elephant figure (stylized elephant figure?).

Ganjawulung

Alam Shah · 25th May 2007, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Are these also derivations of Makara's motive? These six hilts are typical Cirebonese, and also Tegal hilts (Northern Coast of Central Java). They are abstraction of elephant figure (stylized elephant figure?).

Ganjawulung

No, these hilt are not derived from the makara. These are ganesha-inspired hilts.

It seems that you've quite a lot of nice hilts. Are you a hilt collector,as well?

ganjawulung · 25th May 2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

No, these hilt are not derived from the makara. These are ganesha-inspired hilts.

It seems that you've quite a lot of nice hilts. Are you a hilt collector,as well?

Yes Shahrial,
But I'm still beginner in collecting hilts. Hilts with motives, I have mostly Cirebonese (twenty or more), Madurese and mostly "nunggak semi" hilts (Solonese and Yogyakartanese) without motives.

Kerises? Not too many. In my "mad period" about six years ago, I had been searching and searching kerises throughout Java island. From village to village, sometimes cross the river by foot just to get one keris in Central Java. Or sometimes, I traveled alone for days from Jakarta to East Java, just to gather one or two kerises... At that time, I had about 600 kerises. Oh, but now is "only" about 100 kerises and tombaks (spears) or so. Some were fake kerises, or bad kerises. I've sold some too, to buy better kerises..

ganjawulung · 26th May 2007, 04:11 AM

Are these handles from the same root? I don't know for sure, whether this other handle (Cirebonese sword handle) is derived from Makara figure. A kind of abstraction as most of Cirebonese hilts in the Islamic era..

Ganjawulung

ganjawulung · 30th May 2007, 03:29 AM

Is this the abstraction of the Jawa Demam?
Do let me know, please...

VVV · 30th May 2007, 06:11 AM

I suspect that your sword handle also is a makara.
Your keris hilt, with female forms, usually is considered to represent Durga, a shakti of Shiva.

Michael

Marcokeris · 30th May 2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Are these handles from the same root? I don't know for sure, whether this other handle (Cirebonese sword handle) is derived from Makara figure. A kind of abstraction as most of Cirebonese hilts in the Islamic era..

Ganjawulung

Hi Gangja
Aso in my opinion the sword handle comes from Makara figure.
Your other keris hit could be Durga ...but also some other veiled woman.
In Lombok adn Bali (see Djelenga book) there are also other hilt like this but made in local style.
Here below i put a jawa hit. IMO is another Durga in cirebon style.

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2007, 01:04 AM

Thanks for your response, Michael.

You are of course correct when you mention the wide variation in Hindu belief systems.This is true of perhaps all major belief systems, and without guidance can be quite difficult to come to terms with. Possibly you have already sought the assistance of a teacher, or at least a mentor? If not yet, now may be a good time.

I questioned where the belief that this particular form of jejeran represented Durga originated.

You have responded that:-

a) Durga is specifically mentioned in old sources connected with keris, f.i. the Keris Ki Lobar with Durga Dingkul of Gajah Mada (Wiener p. 110) as well as Kerner's different works - f.i. Der keris Ki Sudamala or Keris-griffe aus Museum und privatsammlungen. Probably M Kerner is the one to best answer your question on why Durga?

b) There are several sculptures of Durga found on Java, connected to the Shiva-cult, and she is connected with victory and death.

c) The face is never realistic portrayed on these hilts, as f.i. the Raksasa hilts, but hidden or veiled. According to a myth no man will survive seeing the face of Durga. This is not the case with Devi-Sri according to my understanding?

In respect of your belief that Durga is mentioned in connection with the keris in old literary works.

I regret to advise that this belief is incorrect.

The name of the keris "Durga Dingkul" is comprised of two Old Javanese words:-

durga---this is a word indicating difficulty, it comes from the Sanscrit where it can be translated as "inaccessible", or "difficult to pass"; in Old Javanese it carries a number of meanings, and is used in several compound words, however, possibly the most suitable application when used as a keris name may be the meaning "difficult to overcome".

and

dingkul--- dingkul is a variant of ringkul, and has the meaning of to collapse, or to lay down.

I will not offer a translation of the name "durga dingkul", but I feel that it could be understood as meaning that "any attempt to overcome this keris will cause collapse".

One thing is absolutely certain:- the "durga" in the name of the keris Durga Dingkul, does not refer to Dewi Durga.

Why is it absolutely certain?

The keris is a male symbol, just as much as the lingga is a male symbol. Durga is a female entity.

To understand the "durga" in Durga Dingkul as Dewi Durga is absolutely ludicrous.It must be understood as an ordinary word.

Martin Kerner is nice old man. Prior to his illness, and his subsequent diversion to the study of Stonehenge, I exchanged correspondence with him, and I have signed copies of his publications. However, as Martin himself put it:- "my hypotheses are founded in a very limited range of informative sources and as such aim to provoke constructive criticism and debate".
Martin's philosophy was one of producing a controversial idea and attempting to generate investigation and discussion of that idea. He did do some ground breaking work, especially in his measurements of archaic keris, however his conclusions drawn from this study were, as usual, extremely controversial and unable to be supported either culturally or logically.
It is probably best to think of Martin's work as a catalyst, rather than as providing answers.

Yes, images of Durga will be found in Jawa, and in Bali, but it is drawing a very long bow indeed to say:- "see here is an image of Durga; Durga is associated with victory and death; this jejeran in the abstracted form of a woman must be a representation of Durga".

The images of Durga date from hundreds of years prior to the oldest of this handle form that is known. The handle form is from the Islamic period in Jawa, a period when the abstract representation of living forms was usual.No human faces will be found on jejeran from the Islamic period of Jawa.

Dewi Durga was a goddess of the distant past, but Dewi Sri was and is a living part of traditional Javanese belief.It is simply illogical to believe, in the absence of any solid evidence to the contrary, that these handles represent a Hindu goddess from the distant past, when there is Dewi Sri right there at our elbow, every day.

Then we have the tradition of the "Loro Blonyo", the symbol of married harmony.The Loro Blonyo is a pair of figures representing Dewi Sri, and her consort, Sadono.Dewi Sri is the mother of the house, Sadono is the father, together they symbolise the unity of marriage and harmony of the house. They are inseparable.

The blade of the keris is male, unified with a female figure you have a representation of harmony, and the symbolic female figure for such a representation is Dewi Sri.Taking this symbolism a little further, you have the female wrongko, together with the female handle both wrapped around the male blade, giving perfect protection, and providing perfect harmony to the symbol of masculinity, which in Old Javanese thought is the essence of the world.Philosophically it is a representation the female element providing protection to the male element, with the male element providing protection of the female element in extremity, the two harmonising as one to ensure the continuation of the world.

When we start to study the keris, rather than simply collect it, catalogue it, and display it to amaze fellow collectors, we need to move behind the seemingly obvious and involve ourselves in a number of very diverse fields. Only by doing this can we ever have any hope of understanding the nature of the keris.

Marcokeris · 25th May 2007, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Hi all,

Nice collection of makara hilts.
Thanks Shahrial for the lighter picture. I couldn't see any scales before.
On the illustration from Indonesian Ornamental Design actually that is a rip off too from the older book with the same name by van der Hoop, printed 1949 in "Bandoeng" by the "Koninklijk Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen".
Another style of Makara hilt will be published in Karsten's coming new book.
We were at an auction together and he picked up a much chubbier version than the ones in this thread.

Michael

Hallo Michael
Please could you tell some more news about the new Karsten's book?
(When will be edit, subject, ...)
Thanks
Marco

VVV · 25th May 2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Hallo Michael
Please could you tell some more news about the new Karsten's book?
(When will be edit, subject, ...)
Thanks
Marco

Hello Marco,

Hopefully it will be available early this Fall.
It will cover all Keris areas and is 400+ pages in colour with several keris from museums and other European collections.
Last time I talked with Karsten I was told that it will be published as a CD because of the size etc.

Michael

Alam Shah · 25th May 2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

...Nice collection of makara hilts.
Thanks Shahrial for the lighter picture. I couldn't see any scales before.
On the illustration from Indonesian Ornamental Design actually that is a rip off too from the older book with the same name by van der Hoop, printed 1949 in "Bandoeng" by the "Koninklijk Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen".
Another style of Makara hilt will be published in Karsten's coming new book.
We were at an auction together and he picked up a much chubbier version than the ones in this thread.

Michael

No problem, Michael. Imho, ganjawulung's hilt is probably an improved, simplified version of the makara, hence the missing scales.

I'll be looking forward to Karsten's new book, as well.

25th May 2007, 09:45 AM	#2
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Makara's Derivation? Are these also derivations of Makara's motive? These six hilts are typical Cirebonese, and also Tegal hilts (Northern Coast of Central Java). They are abstraction of elephant figure (stylized elephant figure?). Ganjawulung Attached Images

26th May 2007, 04:11 AM	#5
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Are these handles from the same root? I don't know for sure, whether this other handle (Cirebonese sword handle) is derived from Makara figure. A kind of abstraction as most of Cirebonese hilts in the Islamic era.. Ganjawulung Attached Images

30th May 2007, 03:29 AM	#6
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Abstraction of Jawa Demam? Is this the abstraction of the Jawa Demam? Do let me know, please... Attached Images

25th May 2007, 09:13 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi all, Nice collection of makara hilts. Thanks Shahrial for the lighter picture. I couldn't see any scales before. On the illustration from Indonesian Ornamental Design actually that is a rip off too from the older book with the same name by van der Hoop, printed 1949 in "Bandoeng" by the "Koninklijk Bataviaasch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen". Another style of Makara hilt will be published in Karsten's coming new book. We were at an auction together and he picked up a much chubbier version than the ones in this thread. Michael

30th May 2007, 06:11 AM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I suspect that your sword handle also is a makara. Your keris hilt, with female forms, usually is considered to represent Durga, a shakti of Shiva. Michael

31st May 2007, 01:04 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks for your response, Michael. You are of course correct when you mention the wide variation in Hindu belief systems.This is true of perhaps all major belief systems, and without guidance can be quite difficult to come to terms with. Possibly you have already sought the assistance of a teacher, or at least a mentor? If not yet, now may be a good time. I questioned where the belief that this particular form of jejeran represented Durga originated. You have responded that:- a) Durga is specifically mentioned in old sources connected with keris, f.i. the Keris Ki Lobar with Durga Dingkul of Gajah Mada (Wiener p. 110) as well as Kerner's different works - f.i. Der keris Ki Sudamala or Keris-griffe aus Museum und privatsammlungen. Probably M Kerner is the one to best answer your question on why Durga? b) There are several sculptures of Durga found on Java, connected to the Shiva-cult, and she is connected with victory and death. c) The face is never realistic portrayed on these hilts, as f.i. the Raksasa hilts, but hidden or veiled. According to a myth no man will survive seeing the face of Durga. This is not the case with Devi-Sri according to my understanding? In respect of your belief that Durga is mentioned in connection with the keris in old literary works. I regret to advise that this belief is incorrect. The name of the keris "Durga Dingkul" is comprised of two Old Javanese words:- durga---this is a word indicating difficulty, it comes from the Sanscrit where it can be translated as "inaccessible", or "difficult to pass"; in Old Javanese it carries a number of meanings, and is used in several compound words, however, possibly the most suitable application when used as a keris name may be the meaning "difficult to overcome". and dingkul--- dingkul is a variant of ringkul, and has the meaning of to collapse, or to lay down. I will not offer a translation of the name "durga dingkul", but I feel that it could be understood as meaning that "any attempt to overcome this keris will cause collapse". One thing is absolutely certain:- the "durga" in the name of the keris Durga Dingkul, does not refer to Dewi Durga. Why is it absolutely certain? The keris is a male symbol, just as much as the lingga is a male symbol. Durga is a female entity. To understand the "durga" in Durga Dingkul as Dewi Durga is absolutely ludicrous.It must be understood as an ordinary word. Martin Kerner is nice old man. Prior to his illness, and his subsequent diversion to the study of Stonehenge, I exchanged correspondence with him, and I have signed copies of his publications. However, as Martin himself put it:- "my hypotheses are founded in a very limited range of informative sources and as such aim to provoke constructive criticism and debate". Martin's philosophy was one of producing a controversial idea and attempting to generate investigation and discussion of that idea. He did do some ground breaking work, especially in his measurements of archaic keris, however his conclusions drawn from this study were, as usual, extremely controversial and unable to be supported either culturally or logically. It is probably best to think of Martin's work as a catalyst, rather than as providing answers. Yes, images of Durga will be found in Jawa, and in Bali, but it is drawing a very long bow indeed to say:- "see here is an image of Durga; Durga is associated with victory and death; this jejeran in the abstracted form of a woman must be a representation of Durga". The images of Durga date from hundreds of years prior to the oldest of this handle form that is known. The handle form is from the Islamic period in Jawa, a period when the abstract representation of living forms was usual.No human faces will be found on jejeran from the Islamic period of Jawa. Dewi Durga was a goddess of the distant past, but Dewi Sri was and is a living part of traditional Javanese belief.It is simply illogical to believe, in the absence of any solid evidence to the contrary, that these handles represent a Hindu goddess from the distant past, when there is Dewi Sri right there at our elbow, every day. Then we have the tradition of the "Loro Blonyo", the symbol of married harmony.The Loro Blonyo is a pair of figures representing Dewi Sri, and her consort, Sadono.Dewi Sri is the mother of the house, Sadono is the father, together they symbolise the unity of marriage and harmony of the house. They are inseparable. The blade of the keris is male, unified with a female figure you have a representation of harmony, and the symbolic female figure for such a representation is Dewi Sri.Taking this symbolism a little further, you have the female wrongko, together with the female handle both wrapped around the male blade, giving perfect protection, and providing perfect harmony to the symbol of masculinity, which in Old Javanese thought is the essence of the world.Philosophically it is a representation the female element providing protection to the male element, with the male element providing protection of the female element in extremity, the two harmonising as one to ensure the continuation of the world. When we start to study the keris, rather than simply collect it, catalogue it, and display it to amaze fellow collectors, we need to move behind the seemingly obvious and involve ourselves in a number of very diverse fields. Only by doing this can we ever have any hope of understanding the nature of the keris.