Eastern Sword: Origin and Age?

Tim Simmons · 22nd May 2007, 04:55 PM

It seems to me that there are two hands and origins on this piece. The brass work is so different from the white metal, which is very crude. I have a feeling this is European work. The leaves a cross between oak and acanthus. This repousse work is common to 18th and 19th century European metalware. The blade also looks European. The white metal bits are from elsewhere. I will post some pics latter.

Tim Simmons · 22nd May 2007, 05:11 PM

I will stick my neck out and say this was originally European and a copy of French work. I would say made somewhere East of France where the French taste was very much in favour.

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2007, 05:18 PM

I go along with the SE Asia attribution on this, and note the incongruity of the white and brass metalwork. This seems interpretive of European officers sabres in the hilt reflecting the ribbed grips as well as the birdhead form pommel/backstrap (of course not suggesting that the pommel in any particular way represents the head of a bird

I would imagine this to date mid to latter 19th c. and am inclined to agree more with Thailand. The vegetal decoration does seem to favor acanthus, which of course was popular on the neoclassic theme often seen on the blade decoration on European officers sabres, in this case probably British and fashioned after the M1796 sabres . I have seen British officers M1796 sabres that are indeed quite small as well. The smaller size I think were for easier wear in formal events.

Best regards,
Jim

Flavio · 22nd May 2007, 06:00 PM

I apologize

. I remember to have seen this sword on ebay (perhaps I have also tried to bid) and somehow I remember to have thought (or found on some book) that this was some kind of kastane. I have watched on Stone, but it is not the right book. Simply, I was wrong.... So, Sorry

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2007, 06:12 PM

No need to apologize to anyone Flavio!!! Yours was an honest assessment, and quite frankly, this piece does carry certain gestalt that might suggest Ceylon and a variation of kastane in some ways.
I'm always delighted when anyone steps forward and makes an observation or expresses an idea on a weapon....no matter what, we all learn together!

All the best,
Jim

Flavio · 22nd May 2007, 06:47 PM

Thank you for your kindness Jim

RSWORD · 22nd May 2007, 07:45 PM

I would vote Malaysia on this example. The scabbard style, with the European style drag, the belt hook and the open design work between the silver mounts, reminds me of some Pedang style swords, some with monster head hilts and some with this style of downcurving hilt. For a similar example, without scabbard, please refer to "Catalogue De La Collection D'Armes Anciennes" by Buttin, plate XXVII #904. That example, with similar style handle, is labeled as Malaysian Pirate sword.

Tim Simmons · 22nd May 2007, 08:06 PM

Surely this must be from French Indochina or areas under that colonial influence. A pirates weapon is a good suggestion. I wonder if it was taken and added to. It has been added to. The French style is undeniable in art work , blade and hilt.

Henk · 22nd May 2007, 08:09 PM

I go with RSWORD. The first thing I thought when I saw the scabbard was that it was made in Indonesia. I think it is a pedang. I don't have the books with me at this moment but I do remember and I thought it was in Van Zonneveld I saw a pedang with an European look.

22nd May 2007, 04:55 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	It seems to me that there are two hands and origins on this piece. The brass work is so different from the white metal, which is very crude. I have a feeling this is European work. The leaves a cross between oak and acanthus. This repousse work is common to 18th and 19th century European metalware. The blade also looks European. The white metal bits are from elsewhere. I will post some pics latter.

22nd May 2007, 05:11 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	I will stick my neck out and say this was originally European and a copy of French work. I would say made somewhere East of France where the French taste was very much in favour.

22nd May 2007, 05:18 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	I go along with the SE Asia attribution on this, and note the incongruity of the white and brass metalwork. This seems interpretive of European officers sabres in the hilt reflecting the ribbed grips as well as the birdhead form pommel/backstrap (of course not suggesting that the pommel in any particular way represents the head of a bird I would imagine this to date mid to latter 19th c. and am inclined to agree more with Thailand. The vegetal decoration does seem to favor acanthus, which of course was popular on the neoclassic theme often seen on the blade decoration on European officers sabres, in this case probably British and fashioned after the M1796 sabres . I have seen British officers M1796 sabres that are indeed quite small as well. The smaller size I think were for easier wear in formal events. Best regards, Jim

22nd May 2007, 06:00 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	I apologize . I remember to have seen this sword on ebay (perhaps I have also tried to bid) and somehow I remember to have thought (or found on some book) that this was some kind of kastane. I have watched on Stone, but it is not the right book. Simply, I was wrong.... So, Sorry

22nd May 2007, 06:12 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	No need to apologize to anyone Flavio!!! Yours was an honest assessment, and quite frankly, this piece does carry certain gestalt that might suggest Ceylon and a variation of kastane in some ways. I'm always delighted when anyone steps forward and makes an observation or expresses an idea on a weapon....no matter what, we all learn together! All the best, Jim

22nd May 2007, 06:47 PM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you for your kindness Jim

22nd May 2007, 07:45 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	I would vote Malaysia on this example. The scabbard style, with the European style drag, the belt hook and the open design work between the silver mounts, reminds me of some Pedang style swords, some with monster head hilts and some with this style of downcurving hilt. For a similar example, without scabbard, please refer to "Catalogue De La Collection D'Armes Anciennes" by Buttin, plate XXVII #904. That example, with similar style handle, is labeled as Malaysian Pirate sword.

22nd May 2007, 08:06 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Surely this must be from French Indochina or areas under that colonial influence. A pirates weapon is a good suggestion. I wonder if it was taken and added to. It has been added to. The French style is undeniable in art work , blade and hilt.

22nd May 2007, 08:09 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I go with RSWORD. The first thing I thought when I saw the scabbard was that it was made in Indonesia. I think it is a pedang. I don't have the books with me at this moment but I do remember and I thought it was in Van Zonneveld I saw a pedang with an European look.