Kastane for comment

Andrew · 20th May 2007, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CourseEight

One other thing that's curious, though. The balance on the sword is a bit odd, since its center of balance seems to be exactly at the point where the blade becomes the ricasso. So its seems this sword at least was not meant for fighting.

Comments once again appreciated!

Hi Radleigh. I think you absolutely stole this thing! Congrats.

Personally, I think swords with a COB close to the handle feel "quick". I prefer it, actually.

CourseEight · 21st May 2007, 12:17 AM

Thanks so much for all the kind words!

Quote:

Personally, I think swords with a COB close to the handle feel "quick". I prefer it, actually.

To be honest I didn't really have much knowledge about how kastanes were used, except as ranks of office given by the Dutch. I've always been under the impression that, for a slashing or cutting type weapon, the best place to strike with it would be at the COB. Having the balance point close to the hilt does make the sword quicker, as you said, which would be good thing for control when thrusting. Of course, I've only done a night course in foil fencing at the local community college, so I'd love to learn whether all this is actually true!

In searching for information on the fighting styles of the Ceylonese, I found this great article:

http://www.pihakaetta.com/sinhala_weapons_armor_low.pdf

It seems they did have a fencing foil type weapon, so maybe this balance fits their preference. I'm curious as to how other kastanes out there are balanced, especially those with native blades. Does anyone else have one to share?

Quote:

This is a most unusual kastane, especially if that blade is actually wootz. It is quite atypical to see the forte cover, which seems to favor the 'tunkou' type feature on yataghans. It seems that most kastanes I have seen are typically mounted with 18th century European hanger blades ( naturally many of these now very hard to find, had Dutch VOC markings).

When I bought it I thought it would perhaps be such a European blade, with the decorations added later, but this does not seem to be the case. I'm attaching a couple of other examples I've found through searching that are somewhat similar. The first is from Oriental-Arms, and the second is in Stone (Nos. 4 and 6). Both have the forte decoration, but I haven't been able to find one with the decorations in the fuller. Indeed, most with non-European blades don't seem to have fullers at all, and the Oriental-Arms one below has a blade of not nearly the quality, wootz or no.

Another note about the forte decorations: near the border of where the decorations have been lost there appears to be a hole in the blade with a piece of metal filling it in (the piece is a little loose). It almost looks like a rivit. It's unclear whether the brass was put over the hole, or the hole was made after the brass and then filled in. I've read some discussions about the use and meaning of such holes (testing metal quality for export, 100 kills, etc) and I'm interested how such a hole in this sword adds to the debate, if at all.

I'm attaching another couple of photos trying to capture the pattern on the blade, but I fear this one has failed as well. Not owning any "confirmed" wootz myself I'm still not sure whther it is or it isn't. Can oxidation form a pattern on the blade along the entire length of it, that is pretty much the same everywhere and looks a bit like rayskin?

Jim McDougall · 21st May 2007, 04:17 AM

Nicely done Radleigh!!!

I very much like the way you have addressed the posts regarding your sword and providing nicely detailed support material. The kastane is not often discussed and extremely limited information available on them, so your sword and data have added to the archived resources here.
Thank you very much!
All the best,
Jim

Marc · 21st May 2007, 09:45 AM

Corrosion can indeed form a pattern along the blade, which a priori seems to be the case here. Im' afraid that without better focused pictures it's going to be hard to say anything realistic about it...

CourseEight · 25th May 2007, 02:25 AM

Hi all --

Quote:

Nicely done Radleigh!!!
I very much like the way you have addressed the posts regarding your sword and providing nicely detailed support material. The kastane is not often discussed and extremely limited information available on them, so your sword and data have added to the archived resources here.
Thank you very much!
All the best,
Jim

I'm quite pleased to contribute. I've only been collecting real stuff for about a year, and I have to thank everyone here for what an incredible resource this site is. I'm glad to give back, even in such a limited way!

Quote:

Corrosion can indeed form a pattern along the blade, which a priori seems to be the case here. Im' afraid that without better focused pictures it's going to be hard to say anything realistic about it...

Thanks for the information, Marc! Given this, I'd say I'm fairly convinced it is not wootz. I'd love to see pictures of the sort of whole-blade patterns that corrosion can cause, to compare with mine. Reading more about it, unless I'm incorrect it seems that with a vigorous polish one can make a wootz pattern disappear, and require an etching to reappear. I tried further polishing of the kastane, and got... no change whatsoever. This, and the seemingly none-existence of other examples of wootz kastanes, seems conclusive to me.

Still an amazing piece that I'm lucky to have!

(Still on the hunt for my first something made of wootz...

)

--Radleigh

derek · 8th June 2007, 08:18 PM

Hi,

I just want to tell you that you have found a fantastic kastane for the price. I have seen examples in much poorer condition go for three times that. Congrats, it's a keeper.

As noted before, these swords were generally not meant for fighting (like many piha kaettas). They were made for people of rank or importance. They were likely inspired by Dutch naval swords during the Dutch colonial era in Ceylon. These swords, as well as the pihas, were not likely produced after the King of Kandy surrendered authority to the British in 1815. These are old swords.

Somewhere I have seen a pic of a painting of "Bonny Prince Charlie" wearing a kastane. If anyone can still find that pic, please post a link!

I've read several historical comments about the fine iron ore found in Ceylon, but the blades produced there are frequently not of a quality that would reflect this. However, the real art was poured into the other aspects, as you can see, and the styles and patterns were very explicitly defined in Sinhalese terminology. The spirals, swirls, and animal forms were heavily inspired by the surrounding flora, fauna, and spiritual beliefs.

This sword is almost certainly not wootz. If anything it would be pattern welded, and may possibly be differentially hardened "like" a japanese sword.

Again, congrats on the find. Let me know if you get tired of looking at it

-d

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2007, 05:17 PM

Hi Derek,
I sure would like to see the illustration of Bonnie Prince Charlie wearing what must appear to be a kastane also. It seems it would most likely be a hanger of some sort, as one of these in Scotland seems unlikely. I know that many exotic weapons turned up in the Netherlands though, clearly from the Dutch East India Co. commerce in those regions, so who knows?

The history of the kastane itself is obscure, however as a weapon form, actually with focus on the hilt, the earliest known example with the 'sinha' (lion) head and distinct quillon arrangement is held in Tokyo. This sword is provenanced from the Keicho Mission of 1613-1620, which was a diplomatic mission which visited many foreign ports. It is unclear whether the mission actually obtained the kastane in Ceylon (Sinhala, Sri Lanka) or whether it was obtained via another trade location. In any case its provenance does set the hilt form to early 17th c.

In my opinion, the distinct quillon system reflects hanger hilts from earlier Italian sabres known as 'storta' which were widely diffused via the Venetian traders (see "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword", A. North, The Connoisseur, London, 1975). These hilts in turn developed on European hangers of the forms seen in England, Germany and the Netherlands. Many of these later featured lion heads it is uncertain whether the sinha from the kastane may have prompted the European versions. It does seem that these distinct swords may have developed from the considerable trade contact of these powers, and may have been adopted in form in the early years of the 17th c.

It is indeed interesting that with the steel production so prevalent in Sri Lanka from ancient times that they became so reliant on the foreign blades in the case of the kastane. Many examples I have seen seem to consistantly carry VOC (Dutch East India Co.) blades and if memory serves, most of those have dates stamped in 1760's. I do agree that the kastanes do seem to date from 18th century and possibly as noted to c.1815.

Best regards,
Jim

21st May 2007, 04:17 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Nicely done Radleigh!!! I very much like the way you have addressed the posts regarding your sword and providing nicely detailed support material. The kastane is not often discussed and extremely limited information available on them, so your sword and data have added to the archived resources here. Thank you very much! All the best, Jim

21st May 2007, 09:45 AM	#4
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Corrosion can indeed form a pattern along the blade, which a priori seems to be the case here. Im' afraid that without better focused pictures it's going to be hard to say anything realistic about it...

8th June 2007, 08:18 PM	#6
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi, I just want to tell you that you have found a fantastic kastane for the price. I have seen examples in much poorer condition go for three times that. Congrats, it's a keeper. As noted before, these swords were generally not meant for fighting (like many piha kaettas). They were made for people of rank or importance. They were likely inspired by Dutch naval swords during the Dutch colonial era in Ceylon. These swords, as well as the pihas, were not likely produced after the King of Kandy surrendered authority to the British in 1815. These are old swords. Somewhere I have seen a pic of a painting of "Bonny Prince Charlie" wearing a kastane. If anyone can still find that pic, please post a link! I've read several historical comments about the fine iron ore found in Ceylon, but the blades produced there are frequently not of a quality that would reflect this. However, the real art was poured into the other aspects, as you can see, and the styles and patterns were very explicitly defined in Sinhalese terminology. The spirals, swirls, and animal forms were heavily inspired by the surrounding flora, fauna, and spiritual beliefs. This sword is almost certainly not wootz. If anything it would be pattern welded, and may possibly be differentially hardened "like" a japanese sword. Again, congrats on the find. Let me know if you get tired of looking at it -d

9th June 2007, 05:17 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Derek, I sure would like to see the illustration of Bonnie Prince Charlie wearing what must appear to be a kastane also. It seems it would most likely be a hanger of some sort, as one of these in Scotland seems unlikely. I know that many exotic weapons turned up in the Netherlands though, clearly from the Dutch East India Co. commerce in those regions, so who knows? The history of the kastane itself is obscure, however as a weapon form, actually with focus on the hilt, the earliest known example with the 'sinha' (lion) head and distinct quillon arrangement is held in Tokyo. This sword is provenanced from the Keicho Mission of 1613-1620, which was a diplomatic mission which visited many foreign ports. It is unclear whether the mission actually obtained the kastane in Ceylon (Sinhala, Sri Lanka) or whether it was obtained via another trade location. In any case its provenance does set the hilt form to early 17th c. In my opinion, the distinct quillon system reflects hanger hilts from earlier Italian sabres known as 'storta' which were widely diffused via the Venetian traders (see "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword", A. North, The Connoisseur, London, 1975). These hilts in turn developed on European hangers of the forms seen in England, Germany and the Netherlands. Many of these later featured lion heads it is uncertain whether the sinha from the kastane may have prompted the European versions. It does seem that these distinct swords may have developed from the considerable trade contact of these powers, and may have been adopted in form in the early years of the 17th c. It is indeed interesting that with the steel production so prevalent in Sri Lanka from ancient times that they became so reliant on the foreign blades in the case of the kastane. Many examples I have seen seem to consistantly carry VOC (Dutch East India Co.) blades and if memory serves, most of those have dates stamped in 1760's. I do agree that the kastanes do seem to date from 18th century and possibly as noted to c.1815. Best regards, Jim