Khyber knife

tom hyle · 28th February 2005, 08:54 AM

Few bayonets start out by curving back, though many start out by curving forward, then curve back. I've been puzzling on the issue of the mark myself; it might help to know what it says, but by my info. it could be a maker's or owner's marks. It appears to have been struck with individual strokes. The long strokes have pointy ends, as if chiselled, but they look of even dpth, as if etched, but this could easily be a limitation of photography; what decides me are the individually struck dots. This work could have occurred at any time in the life of the weapon. The base of a thick sabre blade is not dis-similar in cross-section to a "T-back" blade, the main distinction being a heavier edge (the transition to the thick spine is more gradual and rounded, but similar). Certainly falling into the category of dagger, while many bitzak are clearly more knives.

delor · 28th February 2005, 02:27 PM

Hi,

it seems to me that the original blade needed to be large enough, so that it leave place to reground with the curved shape of the edge nearby the ricasso. A shashka would not fit because the fuller already takes most of the blade. Also the recasso seems to be resized, I think the blade was much larger (and much longer of course...)

rgremm · 2nd March 2005, 05:10 AM

I've posted the inscription to the puzzle page of omniglot.com. They seem to do quite well at these sort of linguistic challenges. I'll keep you posted on results. Rick

Jim McDougall · 3rd March 2005, 12:30 AM

Tom,
Thank you for observing and commenting on the clearly Islamic stamp in the blade and noting that this mark may have been added at any time during the working life of the blade including most likely the time of the alterations we are discussing. Therefore even a European blade may have received an Islamic marking during being reprofiled as in this case.

Ariel,
It is interesting to note that from early times captured weapons often became trophies, without even considering the developing prevalence of trade weapons. Therefore it would not only be possible, but even likely that a European blade may have been used even in an Islamic weapon, and so marked. That this practice occurred in medieval times is illustrated by Sir James Mann:
"...at an earlier period the late Baron de Cosson came into possession of a European, probably Italian sword of the middle XVth century, which is inscribed in Arabic: 'unalienably bequethed by al-Malik al Ashraf Barsbay-may his victory be glorious!-in the store houses of the victorious arms, in the frontier city of Sikandariya, the well guarded, from what came into his ownership, in the month of al-Muharram, of the year 836 (Aug-Sep 1432)".
from "A European Sword of the Late XIVth Century with an Arabic
Inscription" by Sir James Mann, Israel Exploration Society,
1963, L.A.Mayer Memorial Volume 7
In this article, this much esteemed author describes the many such European weapons found in Ottoman arsenals at Alexandria and Constantinople (St.Irene).

The use of European blades in native mounts is further illustrated in these comments in a narrative from 3rd Bengal Irregular cavalry c.1845 and the tulwars used by the Sikhs :
"...All the tulwars have wooden leather covered scabbards and contrary to the regulars weapons had a razor sharp edge which would be impossible to maintain with a steel scabbard. Strangely the blades were often obtained from the government and of the same pattern issued to the regulars* but mounted with asiatic hilts".
from article in Tradition magazine by Lt.Col. J.B.R.Nicholsen
(#21, p.12)

It seemed that this was a good opportunity to review the hybridization of weapons, as well as their often complex histories as they changed hands and as discussed here, often entire incarnations. Here they often transcended religious, political and cultural boundaries.

The location of the stamp on the blade of the example we discuss on this thread seems placed in accordance with many arsenal stamps, which would seem more likely than a makers stamp in my opinion. Makers took great pride in their blades, where refurbishing an existing blade, especially foreign as noted, would not necessarily elicit such personal marking. A captured blade, as noted in the quotes from Sir James Mann's article, would however seem likely to be marked to an armoury.

All in all, as Ariel has noted, our best guesses are just guesses, but as we all agree, these weapons have stories to tell, and this one is trying to talk to us!!

I think we're on the right track!

Best regards,
Jim

Raja Muda · 3rd March 2005, 02:52 AM

Hi,

I think the inscription is upside down, but standing on my head in front of my PC, I think it says Hassan Faqeer, probably the name of the smith? Cheers

Yannis · 3rd March 2005, 08:18 AM

Raja, don’t brake your neck.

Right click on a picture and “save image as” to your PC. Then open it with any photo editor and turn it 180 degrees, or just save it in “my documents” >> “my pictures” and turn it twice right or twice left.

tom hyle · 3rd March 2005, 09:29 AM

The peculiar thing about the tang is that it is part length, but does not taper off to nothing part way along; it ends abruptly in a thick end. I suspect it is a full flat tang meant for a smaller hand of the past, rehilted bigger for modern times, so the tang no longer "fills" the newer, bigger hilt. I've seen this very thing on a qaddara before. This, combined with the edge decoration matching the bolster, makes me think the bolster predates the handle (of course it predates it, but I think it is from an earlier edition, if you follow); had the bolster been added at the same time as the larger scales, would not a tang-band extended to enclose the new pommel seem more likely than an intricate engraving job on the edge of the tang? Further, the engraving seems to disappear into the handle, continuing within it?

3rd March 2005, 02:52 AM	#5
Raja Muda Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Posts: 100	Inscription Hi, I think the inscription is upside down, but standing on my head in front of my PC, I think it says Hassan Faqeer, probably the name of the smith? Cheers

28th February 2005, 08:54 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Few bayonets start out by curving back, though many start out by curving forward, then curve back. I've been puzzling on the issue of the mark myself; it might help to know what it says, but by my info. it could be a maker's or owner's marks. It appears to have been struck with individual strokes. The long strokes have pointy ends, as if chiselled, but they look of even dpth, as if etched, but this could easily be a limitation of photography; what decides me are the individually struck dots. This work could have occurred at any time in the life of the weapon. The base of a thick sabre blade is not dis-similar in cross-section to a "T-back" blade, the main distinction being a heavier edge (the transition to the thick spine is more gradual and rounded, but similar). Certainly falling into the category of dagger, while many bitzak are clearly more knives.

28th February 2005, 02:27 PM	#2
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	More likeky a large sabre Hi, it seems to me that the original blade needed to be large enough, so that it leave place to reground with the curved shape of the edge nearby the ricasso. A shashka would not fit because the fuller already takes most of the blade. Also the recasso seems to be resized, I think the blade was much larger (and much longer of course...)

2nd March 2005, 05:10 AM	#3
rgremm Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4	I've posted the inscription to the puzzle page of omniglot.com. They seem to do quite well at these sort of linguistic challenges. I'll keep you posted on results. Rick

3rd March 2005, 12:30 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,283	Tom, Thank you for observing and commenting on the clearly Islamic stamp in the blade and noting that this mark may have been added at any time during the working life of the blade including most likely the time of the alterations we are discussing. Therefore even a European blade may have received an Islamic marking during being reprofiled as in this case. Ariel, It is interesting to note that from early times captured weapons often became trophies, without even considering the developing prevalence of trade weapons. Therefore it would not only be possible, but even likely that a European blade may have been used even in an Islamic weapon, and so marked. That this practice occurred in medieval times is illustrated by Sir James Mann: "...at an earlier period the late Baron de Cosson came into possession of a European, probably Italian sword of the middle XVth century, which is inscribed in Arabic: 'unalienably bequethed by al-Malik al Ashraf Barsbay-may his victory be glorious!-in the store houses of the victorious arms, in the frontier city of Sikandariya, the well guarded, from what came into his ownership, in the month of al-Muharram, of the year 836 (Aug-Sep 1432)". from "A European Sword of the Late XIVth Century with an Arabic Inscription" by Sir James Mann, Israel Exploration Society, 1963, L.A.Mayer Memorial Volume 7 In this article, this much esteemed author describes the many such European weapons found in Ottoman arsenals at Alexandria and Constantinople (St.Irene). The use of European blades in native mounts is further illustrated in these comments in a narrative from 3rd Bengal Irregular cavalry c.1845 and the tulwars used by the Sikhs : "...All the tulwars have wooden leather covered scabbards and contrary to the regulars weapons had a razor sharp edge which would be impossible to maintain with a steel scabbard. Strangely the blades were often obtained from the government and of the same pattern issued to the regulars* but mounted with asiatic hilts". from article in Tradition magazine by Lt.Col. J.B.R.Nicholsen (#21, p.12) It seemed that this was a good opportunity to review the hybridization of weapons, as well as their often complex histories as they changed hands and as discussed here, often entire incarnations. Here they often transcended religious, political and cultural boundaries. The location of the stamp on the blade of the example we discuss on this thread seems placed in accordance with many arsenal stamps, which would seem more likely than a makers stamp in my opinion. Makers took great pride in their blades, where refurbishing an existing blade, especially foreign as noted, would not necessarily elicit such personal marking. A captured blade, as noted in the quotes from Sir James Mann's article, would however seem likely to be marked to an armoury. All in all, as Ariel has noted, our best guesses are just guesses, but as we all agree, these weapons have stories to tell, and this one is trying to talk to us!! I think we're on the right track! Best regards, Jim

3rd March 2005, 08:18 AM	#6
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Raja, don’t brake your neck. Right click on a picture and “save image as” to your PC. Then open it with any photo editor and turn it 180 degrees, or just save it in “my documents” >> “my pictures” and turn it twice right or twice left.

3rd March 2005, 09:29 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The peculiar thing about the tang is that it is part length, but does not taper off to nothing part way along; it ends abruptly in a thick end. I suspect it is a full flat tang meant for a smaller hand of the past, rehilted bigger for modern times, so the tang no longer "fills" the newer, bigger hilt. I've seen this very thing on a qaddara before. This, combined with the edge decoration matching the bolster, makes me think the bolster predates the handle (of course it predates it, but I think it is from an earlier edition, if you follow); had the bolster been added at the same time as the larger scales, would not a tang-band extended to enclose the new pommel seem more likely than an intricate engraving job on the edge of the tang? Further, the engraving seems to disappear into the handle, continuing within it?