keris and spirit

[Raden Usman Djogja]

in late 1990s, local newspaper reported there was small meteorite fallen down in Temanggung county, Central Java. Soon after that, I aimed to go there. Unfortunely, my acquintance informed that there was no meteorite anymore. The biggest one was occupied by the local government. The smaller debris were for "first come first get".

not really pararel with Lei Shen Dao story:

For some Indonesian people whenever they face serious problem, it is quite common, till nowadays, they do meditate in certain area which believed sacred place. For example, in mountain, beach, jungle, tomb et cetera. Then, quite common fairytails, they are satisfied if during their meditation finding someting, for instance: stone (either raw stone or already "akik" shape), wood, keris. For them, those thing are pusakas or jimat.

Yes of course, 99% of cases are fakes. Why, because generally in doing meditation, there is Dukun involvement. Seemingly, Dukun has thousand ways to deceive his clients.

Now, lets consider with the 1% which really happen. If we read the biography of Sultan HB IX of Yagyakarta, in certain chapter there is explanation of spiritual experience. Especially, in the early period of Indonesian independence. Yes, for me, I simply tend to believe on HB IX statement because he did not need to make "imaginative stories" for his fame. No need at all. So it was written so it was happened.

Okay, to sum up, I would like to raise a premise here. Was there any possibility someone finding a small meteorite during his meditation in the mountain? Then, he gave that meteorite to Empu for his commisoned keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Okay, to sum up, I would like to raise a premise here. Was there any possibility someone finding a small meteorite during his meditation in the mountain? Then, he gave that meteorite to Empu for his commisoned keris.

Of course such a thing is possible and may very well have happened...but one should also keep in mind that not every piece of rock that falls from the sky would be the type of iron/nickel meteorite needed to make the proper pamor material. In fact, most meteorites would be useless for the process. Still, perhaps someone found a small piece of the right stuff and had a powerful keris made with it. Where did the next piece come from....and the next? Because if it is true that only meteorite can create a powerful keris with spirit one has to wonder where all that meteorite came from, enough to make enough powerful, spirit filled keris that it became the only way to make a spirit-filled keris. Certainly people would have me believe that while every keris is not a "powerful" keris there are enough of them out there to sustain the myth. If not powerful then at least ones that hold spirit. So where did the meteorite come from for all those kraton keris pusaka made before the Prambanan fall. For just those keris alone that's a lot of a fairly rare material to come up with from meditating on a hill top. Were any spirit-filled keris made outside the kraton? It's even a lot of material if you include trading, even if it is a material the Chinese or some other culture would be willing to trade. I am not saying that it is not possible that it happened. But i would love to find just one grain of evidence. Some old Chinese trade records perhaps. Some old Javanese writings that mention the use of meteorite in pre-Prambanan keris. AFAIK no such records exist.
Please forgive me if i sound a little frustrated when discussing this subject. It is just that we have been around and round on the meteorite issue many times before with very little resolution. I highly recommend that the new members here take the time to use the search feature for both this and the old forum to see where we have already been on this subject. Try "meteorite keris" as your keywords.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by David

AFAIK no such records exist.
Please forgive me if i sound a little frustrated when discussing this subject. It is just that we have been around and round on the meteorite issue many times before with very little resolution. I highly recommend that the new members here take the time to use the search feature for both this and the old forum to see where we have already been on this subject. Try "meteorite keris" as your keywords.

David,

yes, you are right. there is lack of written evidence, especially scientific/objective written evidence. even today, written recording is not usual yet. yeah... simply related to the culture of society. the knowlegde of oldsmith transferred orally to youngsmith. why? to many explanation: illiteracy, culture, secret recipe, delegitimation and so on. this realm happens not only in keris field but also in other field which involving magical aspects.

I can understand if discussing the same topic again and again and again has disturbed you. Lets move further. Leave meteorite issue because it is part of the past. How about spirit? If it is an old one, too... so lets stop this topic and change with a new one. Any new issue offer?... or just go to the other thread... something new and interesting there...21st century dapur.

Usmen

[David]

Well Usmen, i don't think the idea of meteorite used in keris pamor is a matter of secrecy. The idea is far too common in the general keris consciousness to be meant as a secret.
I am also not "disturbed" by the discussion, but i do think that it is important to understand just how deeply we have covered this subject. I have linked to just one 5 page thread on the subject and there are many more. They are all a good and interesting read and i highly recommend that if you have not already tackled the task (yes, there is a lot of reading ) that you and others do take the time to see where we have been and what has been discussed. It is not my desire to stop the discussion here. I just don't want to see it get bogged down in the same old pitfalls.
You suggest that we leave the subject in the past and talk about spirit, but we are talking about meteorite now in relation to spirit so it really is relavent to this thread. Hopeful we can, if not now, then perhaps someday, cross new territory on this subject that will enlighten us all.

[Lei Shen Dao]

You may choose to disregard the questions, but i certainly mean no disrespect in asking them.

David

No problem. I know that you mean no disrespect and of course I don't disregard your questions.

I just happened to know the opinion of some people from this part of the world (the keris land ) and I thought it was good to sare with you.

I respect their wish for anonymity, so I guess this makes my statements dubious. I hope not too much though.

Best

[David]

Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao

I just happened to know the opinion of some people from this part of the world (the keris land ) and I thought it was good to sare with you.

Opinions are always welcome here i would never automatically dismiss them. However, i don't like to see opinions presented as fact. What we believe and what we know are not always the same thing. What we believe might well be true, but without evidence we can never be sure. I do not disbelieve your statements about meteorite and keris, but even if you were to name the honorable people who hold the same opinion it would still remain a belief that none of us can claim to know for sure.
So no, your statements aren't too dubious.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, what I shall now write is not intended as disagreement with the position you have put, it is just another way of looking at "truth".

If you have enough people believing that something is true, then it becomes so.

I've heard a story a couple of times that might be worth repeating.

It would seem that in old Hawaii the local priest of dukun or whatever they call them in Hawaii, would go down to the eastern shore before sunrise and make an offering to ensure that the sun would rise.
The proof of the effectiveness of his ministrations was that the sun rose.

If the people believed this, it was true for those people.

If we believe that we can influence anything by some action or other, and enough people believe that, then for these people, that becomes true. If the desired effect comes to pass, then it has proven that what was done to achieve that effect worked. If it does not come to pass, then the fault must lay with our performance of the ritual---or maybe God simply has a bigger plan, and could not permit it to happen.

Truth is a bit like history---get enough people believing something, and it becomes true.

Who would ever argue with the "truths" of any major religion?

Certainly not I.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

in late 1990s, local newspaper reported there was small meteorite fallen down in Temanggung county, Central Java. Soon after that, I aimed to go there. Unfortunely, my acquintance informed that there was no meteorite anymore. The biggest one was occupied by the local government. The smaller debris were for "first come first get"..

Even if you got it, Mas Usman, you cannot forge a keris from the Temanggung meteorite, since it was a stony-type meteorite. If I don't mistaken, only 10% of the fall are iron-type meteorite. The best meteorite for pamor material should contains around 10% nickel.

As David mentioned, no reliable evidence nor record that keris' pamor was made from meteorite before the fall of Prambanan Meteorite. Some old books describe many kind of iron, with it's characteristic and it's origin which sometimes refers to region like Kamboja (Campuchea) or Sailan (Ceylon) or mythological origin, but none could be interpreted as originated 'from the sky'. If the meteorite is very powerful, then the most powerful blade should be the old Eskimos/Inuit knives, as it was made from 100% meteorite iron. (before the remaining meteorite was 'stolen', of course).

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...meteorite.html
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/perm...t/capeyork.php

The most common/familiar scientific study on keris/pamor materials for Indonesian keris lovers is the work of Haryono Arumbinang. If his non-destructive chemical analysis valid, we (and he also) conclude that the old blades (if his dating method, which rely on Tangguh, reliable) always contain iron (Fe) and Titanium (Ti) and no Nickel (Ni) content. On the contrary, the nem-neman blades always contain Ni and no Ti. As the iron meteorite should contains some Ni, then we could conclude from Arumbinang's work (despite of Arumbinang's conclusion), no old blade was made/mixed with iron from meteorite. And those which contains Ni is not necessarily made from meteorite iron neither.


For nickel contents in iron meteorites :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_meteorite

[David]

Thanks Boedhi, interesting links.
Here is just one of the many discussions we have had in the past on these forums about the subject of meteorite in keris pamor. I would recommend everyone interested give it a good read (or re-read ) and also search and read all the other numerous threads on the subject so that hopefully we can bring some new information to the table.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...eris+meteorite