keris and spirit

[Lei Shen Dao]

Personally i would like to believe that what you are claiming here is true, but i get tired of seeing these types of claims repeated again and again with no real evidence to back them up.

Hi

I can understand your point.

However, I never said that I am a specialist in keris affairs....

I am just quoting what I have heard in the past and even now, by some people from Java and Surabaya, people who I estimate and respect a lot, for their opinion in matters like these. People who handle, thousands of keris literally, and live with these objects for many years knowing every single aspect of keris. They are considered experts in this field and the most important is that they don't make a living from selling keris, so their knowledge is completely "clean" if I may say.

I just offered an explanation from another point of view. Everyone is free to believe it or not. It is just another opinion.

I am not just a collector of keris (I only have 4 keris and one tombak, so not too much of a collector yet, I guess ).
I am interested into the metaphysics, so I see this aspect of keris culture with a genuine interest.

If someone here has an experience concerning the power of a keris, does he have also to prove his claims or to indicate some kind of source? I don't think so.
This is the same with me (please keep in mind that I could share stories too, but I choose not to do so, out of respect to such sensitive matters).

There were meteorites before Prambanan. Small ones in villages and in the wild, or from trading with other countries like China for example and the list goes on. Small meteorites fall all the time in the planet.
Prambanan just happened to have good "public relations"

Best

[David]

Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao

If someone here has an experience concerning the power of a keris, does he have also to prove his claims or to indicate some kind of source? I don't think so.

If someone is relating a personal experience here there is no need to ask for the source of the information. It is a first person experince so the source is obvious. I then have the choice of believing them or not.
When someone relates knowledge or experience that is not their own i feel perfectly comfortable asking them where they heard or read such a thing. I then also have the choice of believing the source or not.
Many things are said about the keris, some true and some not. Some are provable and some are not. I have no doubt that there are even things we will never be able to prove about the keris that are still likely to be true regardless.
Still, i see no point in blindly accepting unsubstantiated statements without questioning both the source and the content of such statements. You may choose to disregard the questions, but i certainly mean no disrespect in asking them.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

in late 1990s, local newspaper reported there was small meteorite fallen down in Temanggung county, Central Java. Soon after that, I aimed to go there. Unfortunely, my acquintance informed that there was no meteorite anymore. The biggest one was occupied by the local government. The smaller debris were for "first come first get".

not really pararel with Lei Shen Dao story:

For some Indonesian people whenever they face serious problem, it is quite common, till nowadays, they do meditate in certain area which believed sacred place. For example, in mountain, beach, jungle, tomb et cetera. Then, quite common fairytails, they are satisfied if during their meditation finding someting, for instance: stone (either raw stone or already "akik" shape), wood, keris. For them, those thing are pusakas or jimat.

Yes of course, 99% of cases are fakes. Why, because generally in doing meditation, there is Dukun involvement. Seemingly, Dukun has thousand ways to deceive his clients.

Now, lets consider with the 1% which really happen. If we read the biography of Sultan HB IX of Yagyakarta, in certain chapter there is explanation of spiritual experience. Especially, in the early period of Indonesian independence. Yes, for me, I simply tend to believe on HB IX statement because he did not need to make "imaginative stories" for his fame. No need at all. So it was written so it was happened.

Okay, to sum up, I would like to raise a premise here. Was there any possibility someone finding a small meteorite during his meditation in the mountain? Then, he gave that meteorite to Empu for his commisoned keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

Okay, to sum up, I would like to raise a premise here. Was there any possibility someone finding a small meteorite during his meditation in the mountain? Then, he gave that meteorite to Empu for his commisoned keris.

Of course such a thing is possible and may very well have happened...but one should also keep in mind that not every piece of rock that falls from the sky would be the type of iron/nickel meteorite needed to make the proper pamor material. In fact, most meteorites would be useless for the process. Still, perhaps someone found a small piece of the right stuff and had a powerful keris made with it. Where did the next piece come from....and the next? Because if it is true that only meteorite can create a powerful keris with spirit one has to wonder where all that meteorite came from, enough to make enough powerful, spirit filled keris that it became the only way to make a spirit-filled keris. Certainly people would have me believe that while every keris is not a "powerful" keris there are enough of them out there to sustain the myth. If not powerful then at least ones that hold spirit. So where did the meteorite come from for all those kraton keris pusaka made before the Prambanan fall. For just those keris alone that's a lot of a fairly rare material to come up with from meditating on a hill top. Were any spirit-filled keris made outside the kraton? It's even a lot of material if you include trading, even if it is a material the Chinese or some other culture would be willing to trade. I am not saying that it is not possible that it happened. But i would love to find just one grain of evidence. Some old Chinese trade records perhaps. Some old Javanese writings that mention the use of meteorite in pre-Prambanan keris. AFAIK no such records exist.
Please forgive me if i sound a little frustrated when discussing this subject. It is just that we have been around and round on the meteorite issue many times before with very little resolution. I highly recommend that the new members here take the time to use the search feature for both this and the old forum to see where we have already been on this subject. Try "meteorite keris" as your keywords.

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by David

AFAIK no such records exist.
Please forgive me if i sound a little frustrated when discussing this subject. It is just that we have been around and round on the meteorite issue many times before with very little resolution. I highly recommend that the new members here take the time to use the search feature for both this and the old forum to see where we have already been on this subject. Try "meteorite keris" as your keywords.

David,

yes, you are right. there is lack of written evidence, especially scientific/objective written evidence. even today, written recording is not usual yet. yeah... simply related to the culture of society. the knowlegde of oldsmith transferred orally to youngsmith. why? to many explanation: illiteracy, culture, secret recipe, delegitimation and so on. this realm happens not only in keris field but also in other field which involving magical aspects.

I can understand if discussing the same topic again and again and again has disturbed you. Lets move further. Leave meteorite issue because it is part of the past. How about spirit? If it is an old one, too... so lets stop this topic and change with a new one. Any new issue offer?... or just go to the other thread... something new and interesting there...21st century dapur.

Usmen

[David]

Well Usmen, i don't think the idea of meteorite used in keris pamor is a matter of secrecy. The idea is far too common in the general keris consciousness to be meant as a secret.
I am also not "disturbed" by the discussion, but i do think that it is important to understand just how deeply we have covered this subject. I have linked to just one 5 page thread on the subject and there are many more. They are all a good and interesting read and i highly recommend that if you have not already tackled the task (yes, there is a lot of reading ) that you and others do take the time to see where we have been and what has been discussed. It is not my desire to stop the discussion here. I just don't want to see it get bogged down in the same old pitfalls.
You suggest that we leave the subject in the past and talk about spirit, but we are talking about meteorite now in relation to spirit so it really is relavent to this thread. Hopeful we can, if not now, then perhaps someday, cross new territory on this subject that will enlighten us all.

[Lei Shen Dao]

You may choose to disregard the questions, but i certainly mean no disrespect in asking them.

David

No problem. I know that you mean no disrespect and of course I don't disregard your questions.

I just happened to know the opinion of some people from this part of the world (the keris land ) and I thought it was good to sare with you.

I respect their wish for anonymity, so I guess this makes my statements dubious. I hope not too much though.

Best

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

in late 1990s, local newspaper reported there was small meteorite fallen down in Temanggung county, Central Java. Soon after that, I aimed to go there. Unfortunely, my acquintance informed that there was no meteorite anymore. The biggest one was occupied by the local government. The smaller debris were for "first come first get"..

Even if you got it, Mas Usman, you cannot forge a keris from the Temanggung meteorite, since it was a stony-type meteorite. If I don't mistaken, only 10% of the fall are iron-type meteorite. The best meteorite for pamor material should contains around 10% nickel.

As David mentioned, no reliable evidence nor record that keris' pamor was made from meteorite before the fall of Prambanan Meteorite. Some old books describe many kind of iron, with it's characteristic and it's origin which sometimes refers to region like Kamboja (Campuchea) or Sailan (Ceylon) or mythological origin, but none could be interpreted as originated 'from the sky'. If the meteorite is very powerful, then the most powerful blade should be the old Eskimos/Inuit knives, as it was made from 100% meteorite iron. (before the remaining meteorite was 'stolen', of course).

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...meteorite.html
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/perm...t/capeyork.php

The most common/familiar scientific study on keris/pamor materials for Indonesian keris lovers is the work of Haryono Arumbinang. If his non-destructive chemical analysis valid, we (and he also) conclude that the old blades (if his dating method, which rely on Tangguh, reliable) always contain iron (Fe) and Titanium (Ti) and no Nickel (Ni) content. On the contrary, the nem-neman blades always contain Ni and no Ti. As the iron meteorite should contains some Ni, then we could conclude from Arumbinang's work (despite of Arumbinang's conclusion), no old blade was made/mixed with iron from meteorite. And those which contains Ni is not necessarily made from meteorite iron neither.


For nickel contents in iron meteorites :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_meteorite

[David]

Thanks Boedhi, interesting links.
Here is just one of the many discussions we have had in the past on these forums about the subject of meteorite in keris pamor. I would recommend everyone interested give it a good read (or re-read ) and also search and read all the other numerous threads on the subject so that hopefully we can bring some new information to the table.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...eris+meteorite