where in the Sahara?

Conogre · 28th February 2005, 12:13 AM

Honestly, THIS piece came to mind when I saw yours, although clearly unrelated, except for the N. African origin.
For whatever it's worth, I had this piece for almost three years before I finally ID'd it, and when I did I felt entirely foolish!
It was the botton on the tip of the scabbard that gave it away.
Mike

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2005, 01:52 AM

Mike,
I think what you have there is a Moroccan s'boula, likely from Atlas regions of Morocco. These long thin blades, as you have noted, were keenly favored by Berbers in Saharan regions. The opposed carrying rings in baldric fashion are the same as present on the well known koummya daggers also of these regions.
In viewing caravan routes mapped through the Sahara, it is not difficult to imagine the diffusion of these weapons to the south and east where local versions might be fashioned, although with same general characteristics.
Still uncertain of the scabbard/hilt motif, which tribal group may have favored this decoration, but still favor the Mossi by the blade geometric decoration for Tims example.

How could you own this for three years before ID ? I'd go nuts with curiosity !!

. Your example is one of the nicer ones with the engraved handle.
Thanks for posting this!
All the best,
Jim

Conogre · 28th February 2005, 02:12 AM

LOL! When I say "identified" I'd pretty well written it off as you described (although MUCH more general **grin**) although I was always mystified by the T-spine as is found in khyber knives and chooras until I noticed that the ball on the end was steel on the umpteenth cleaning and finally looked at the throat as well.....yep, steel and VERY distinctive!!!
It's a French bayonet from the 1860's that's been rehilted and the scabbard wrapped in nicely tooled brass as is the tribal fashion.
Although there's no way to be certain, I suspect that one of the Legionaires didn't make it back from patrol and this is his weapon in another incarnation, somewhat like the choora/karud in another current thread.
I didn't feel too bad about it though, as I'd bought it from one of the better known and larger Brittish dealers who'd also missed the give aways, as an "unknown African dagger".
The button is what made me scritinize the piece that started this thread so closely to see if there was any chance of a similar origin, but this doesn't seem to be the case without a minute inspection.
Mike

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2005, 05:12 AM

Hi Mike,
Its like you said on the other thread, these pieces in 2nd or third incarnation are old warriors with stories to tell!! (like us

!!
Every time I see these Saharan weapons reincarnated with French blades I think of that cartoon 'the lost patrol'

I think I can really relate for some reason.
Yours dagger is really a nice one though. I found about these through Buttin when researching those nebulous 'Zanzibar' swords, which interestingly are usually found with these narrow bayonet blades. It was surprising to me to discover these were actually another version of these Moroccan daggers.
All the best,
Jim

Conogre · 28th February 2005, 06:36 AM

Thank you again for the information, which is more appreciated than you realize, but it raises, to me at least, another question that I've never seen answered beyond evasion.
With weapons scavenging and re-using going back as far as recorded history, doesn't that in fact make this an s'boula with a French blade?
Captured pieces were often thought to contain the essense of the enemy, sometimes even including extraodinary courage and bravery, thus held in higher esteem than a locally smithed weapon and when it's converted to a form of the local favorite weapon to boot, then the transmogrification seems logical and complete to me.
Then again, I've never been accused of linnear thinking anyways! **grin**
Thank you again,
Mike

Yannis · 28th February 2005, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

It's a French bayonet from the 1860's that's been rehilted and the scabbard wrapped in nicely tooled brass as is the tribal fashion.

It must be earlier. As I know French bayonets of 1860's had the form of yataghan.

28th February 2005, 12:13 AM	#1
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Honestly, THIS piece came to mind when I saw yours, although clearly unrelated, except for the N. African origin. For whatever it's worth, I had this piece for almost three years before I finally ID'd it, and when I did I felt entirely foolish! It was the botton on the tip of the scabbard that gave it away. Mike Attached Images

28th February 2005, 01:52 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,294	Mike, I think what you have there is a Moroccan s'boula, likely from Atlas regions of Morocco. These long thin blades, as you have noted, were keenly favored by Berbers in Saharan regions. The opposed carrying rings in baldric fashion are the same as present on the well known koummya daggers also of these regions. In viewing caravan routes mapped through the Sahara, it is not difficult to imagine the diffusion of these weapons to the south and east where local versions might be fashioned, although with same general characteristics. Still uncertain of the scabbard/hilt motif, which tribal group may have favored this decoration, but still favor the Mossi by the blade geometric decoration for Tims example. How could you own this for three years before ID ? I'd go nuts with curiosity !! . Your example is one of the nicer ones with the engraved handle. Thanks for posting this! All the best, Jim

28th February 2005, 02:12 AM	#3
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	LOL! When I say "identified" I'd pretty well written it off as you described (although MUCH more general grin) although I was always mystified by the T-spine as is found in khyber knives and chooras until I noticed that the ball on the end was steel on the umpteenth cleaning and finally looked at the throat as well.....yep, steel and VERY distinctive!!! It's a French bayonet from the 1860's that's been rehilted and the scabbard wrapped in nicely tooled brass as is the tribal fashion. Although there's no way to be certain, I suspect that one of the Legionaires didn't make it back from patrol and this is his weapon in another incarnation, somewhat like the choora/karud in another current thread. I didn't feel too bad about it though, as I'd bought it from one of the better known and larger Brittish dealers who'd also missed the give aways, as an "unknown African dagger". The button is what made me scritinize the piece that started this thread so closely to see if there was any chance of a similar origin, but this doesn't seem to be the case without a minute inspection. Mike

28th February 2005, 05:12 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,294	Hi Mike, Its like you said on the other thread, these pieces in 2nd or third incarnation are old warriors with stories to tell!! (like us !! Every time I see these Saharan weapons reincarnated with French blades I think of that cartoon 'the lost patrol' I think I can really relate for some reason. Yours dagger is really a nice one though. I found about these through Buttin when researching those nebulous 'Zanzibar' swords, which interestingly are usually found with these narrow bayonet blades. It was surprising to me to discover these were actually another version of these Moroccan daggers. All the best, Jim

28th February 2005, 06:36 AM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Thank you again for the information, which is more appreciated than you realize, but it raises, to me at least, another question that I've never seen answered beyond evasion. With weapons scavenging and re-using going back as far as recorded history, doesn't that in fact make this an s'boula with a French blade? Captured pieces were often thought to contain the essense of the enemy, sometimes even including extraodinary courage and bravery, thus held in higher esteem than a locally smithed weapon and when it's converted to a form of the local favorite weapon to boot, then the transmogrification seems logical and complete to me. Then again, I've never been accused of linnear thinking anyways! grin Thank you again, Mike