Khyber knife

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2005, 06:42 PM

Hi Rick,
Thank you for posting this fascinating weapon! I totally agree with Yannis about the stories weapons can tell, and think of how many times I have heard the expression, 'if only that sword could talk!' , they can...if we can read the messages they send.
I am always amazed at the keen eye everyone here seems to have in noticing that this blade appears to have been cut down from a sabre blade. I didn't notice it, but Tom, the astute blademaster that he is, caught it instantly, and immediately his observation was reinforced. Outstanding!
I like the defined support for this described by Ariel, which details why this observation is so appropriately placed by Tom.

There have been many discussions concerning the terminology used to identify these daggers over the years. The Afghan dagger of this form which is typically straight and intended for armor piercing is termed 'choora' (the etymology of which is unclear). While these were used in Khyber regions by the Mahsud (Stone) they were certainly used by many other tribal groups as well. The engraved tang band and blade length seems to correspond with the Khyber denominator favorably in this case. One thing about these, as well as many of the much larger Khyber Knives (actually of sword size) used by the Afridis and associated Khyber tribes, is that they typically have a pierced tang button. These were to hold a cord or lanyard in the manner of a sword knot. This feature is interesting as it is common in Northern India on tulwars and on the Indian versions of 'pesh-kabz' which is the often recurved blade counterpart of this type armor piercing dagger.

We are told that in Persia, these daggers are termed 'karud', a term which also eludes etymology but is presumed to derive from 'kard', the Persian dagger with straight knife type blade and simple hilt.

An interesting characteristic of the karud, choora, pesh-kabz, Khyber knife and their variants is that the blade cross section is typically T-shaped. In the armor piercing daggers, this is of course reinforcement for thrusting penetration.

It seems that recycled sabres and blades were often used in the manner of this example in regions of Afghanistan and what is now Pakistan, and I have seen Uzbek sabres cut down into smaller working examples with similar type hilts, but with the blade retaining its sabre profile, much like a dirk.
It is interesting that the craftsman who furbished this example followed the traditional Afghan blade profile, rather than following the more standard blade form of the original. There was also a great deal of craftsmanship applied to the bolster and tang band, which I agree with Derek appears of Indian style.
The interesting mark at the forte is also extremely unusual, and may indicate possibly an armoury or arsenal mark as often found on Indian weapons.
Hopefully someone here can interpret the either Arabic or possibly Urdu script in the marking.

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 27th February 2005, 07:22 PM

I doubt very much the pseudo-shashka (Afghani/Uzbeki shashka) origin of this dagger. I have 3 of them and saw several more: all had eared handle, just like the Caucasian ones.
Also, I think the grips were re-attached to the tang: there are several superfluous small nails in the handle. Of course, one can hypothesize that the original pseudoshashka was extensively re-worked: the blade reground and the grips replaced. Bur again, the blade with a single wide fuller is not characteristic of an Uzbeki/Afghani shashkas.
I still vouch for a re-ground trade "military" blade insertwed into an old Khyber handle. Seems to me the grips may be rhino and the new owner might have wanted to keep them.
The stamp may be revealing: anybody knows what is written on it?

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2005, 09:08 PM

I see what Ariel is saying, a military sabre blade. I think it is important to remember the Russian presence in Afghanistan, long before the unfortunate events of 1979....'The Great Game' as the geo-political situation there was termed by author Peter Hopkirk in his book of the same name. The Russian military shashkas of course carried military form sabre blades.
The reference to one of these dagger/short sword weapons with Bukharen blade was simply to correspond with known recycling/refurbishing of older weapons, possibly damaged or even earlier finds from sites of combat or skirmishes.

It is quite possible that earlier British military sabre blades may have been used for many weapons. This had been a standard practice to use either captured or discarded British blades throughout the 19th century. Actually these blades seem to turn up everywhere! There are many tulwars that are presumably from native cavalry regiments that use M1796 British cavalry blades.It is ironic and a strong testament to the quality of these British blades, considering the scandals of the end of the 18th century pitting the quality of British blades against imported German blades, that they found use in many countries over the next century.

Best regards,
Jim

Conogre · 27th February 2005, 09:57 PM

I haven't got a whole lot to add to the already excellent statements on this old warrior except to add that if you look very carefully at the upper edges of the hilt, they seem to have been re-shaped somewhat on both sides, so some small "ears" can't be entirely ruled out, IMO, although later Russian shaqas seemed to tend away from traditional ears as well.
As to nomenclature, I've also seen the type referred to as a "pathan knife", as well as a karud and choora.
I've also seen some recently that are in the true Salwar sabre size range and being sold as such, but that lack the T-spine and seem to have one or two fullers.
I know that Windlass Steelcrafts in India made a duplicate/replica that was offered in United Cutlery for a while that also lacked the T-spine, but those had no fuller that I was able to discern.
My only guess would be that in areas like this that border a traditional weapon style, local smiths might be influenced by those that they've seen yet modify it according to what their own people are more familiar with?
This one, by the way, is a beautiful piece, in my opinion as I love the "battle trophies" that are on their 2nd and 3rd incarnation yet still remain true user weapons, often in combat.
Mike

ariel · 28th February 2005, 02:12 AM

I see what you mean (reworked pommel).
However, Central Asian shashkas had a very peculiar handle: as opposed to the Ccaucasian pattern, they had a relatively narrow handle near the bolster and a gradual widening toward the ears. Not seen here.
As to Jim's suggestion of the European origin of the blade, what about the Islamic marking?
All in all, we should admit that all our best guesses are just...guesses. It is impossible to be certain about the precise origin/history of a weapon on it's 3rd or 4th re-incarnation. Suffice it to say that this dagger saw a lot in its life and can tell rather brutal stories.

tom hyle · 28th February 2005, 02:51 AM

The nonburred rivets appear to be fairly straightforward repairs to the hilt. Those near the bolster appear to be re-affixing a chipped off piece of horn, and it seems that at least one of them is a nail. The one at the butt may have been added to pull the horn scales together if they were seperating with age-warpage.
The part-length tang is interesting.
There is a style bearing a name like bytzak; a varient of "bichaq" I should think, that is essentially a pesh-kabz with a non-reinforced spine; sometimes grooved, sometimes not. Some look much like this, but I still think this is a reground, probably rehilted sabre blade.

Montino Bourbon · 28th February 2005, 03:50 AM

It seems to me that some of the only blades available in Afghanistan that could be taken down to this form are old bayonet blades; some of them have a T-shaped spine.

27th February 2005, 06:42 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Hi Rick, Thank you for posting this fascinating weapon! I totally agree with Yannis about the stories weapons can tell, and think of how many times I have heard the expression, 'if only that sword could talk!' , they can...if we can read the messages they send. I am always amazed at the keen eye everyone here seems to have in noticing that this blade appears to have been cut down from a sabre blade. I didn't notice it, but Tom, the astute blademaster that he is, caught it instantly, and immediately his observation was reinforced. Outstanding! I like the defined support for this described by Ariel, which details why this observation is so appropriately placed by Tom. There have been many discussions concerning the terminology used to identify these daggers over the years. The Afghan dagger of this form which is typically straight and intended for armor piercing is termed 'choora' (the etymology of which is unclear). While these were used in Khyber regions by the Mahsud (Stone) they were certainly used by many other tribal groups as well. The engraved tang band and blade length seems to correspond with the Khyber denominator favorably in this case. One thing about these, as well as many of the much larger Khyber Knives (actually of sword size) used by the Afridis and associated Khyber tribes, is that they typically have a pierced tang button. These were to hold a cord or lanyard in the manner of a sword knot. This feature is interesting as it is common in Northern India on tulwars and on the Indian versions of 'pesh-kabz' which is the often recurved blade counterpart of this type armor piercing dagger. We are told that in Persia, these daggers are termed 'karud', a term which also eludes etymology but is presumed to derive from 'kard', the Persian dagger with straight knife type blade and simple hilt. An interesting characteristic of the karud, choora, pesh-kabz, Khyber knife and their variants is that the blade cross section is typically T-shaped. In the armor piercing daggers, this is of course reinforcement for thrusting penetration. It seems that recycled sabres and blades were often used in the manner of this example in regions of Afghanistan and what is now Pakistan, and I have seen Uzbek sabres cut down into smaller working examples with similar type hilts, but with the blade retaining its sabre profile, much like a dirk. It is interesting that the craftsman who furbished this example followed the traditional Afghan blade profile, rather than following the more standard blade form of the original. There was also a great deal of craftsmanship applied to the bolster and tang band, which I agree with Derek appears of Indian style. The interesting mark at the forte is also extremely unusual, and may indicate possibly an armoury or arsenal mark as often found on Indian weapons. Hopefully someone here can interpret the either Arabic or possibly Urdu script in the marking. Best regards, Jim

27th February 2005, 07:22 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I doubt very much the pseudo-shashka (Afghani/Uzbeki shashka) origin of this dagger. I have 3 of them and saw several more: all had eared handle, just like the Caucasian ones. Also, I think the grips were re-attached to the tang: there are several superfluous small nails in the handle. Of course, one can hypothesize that the original pseudoshashka was extensively re-worked: the blade reground and the grips replaced. Bur again, the blade with a single wide fuller is not characteristic of an Uzbeki/Afghani shashkas. I still vouch for a re-ground trade "military" blade insertwed into an old Khyber handle. Seems to me the grips may be rhino and the new owner might have wanted to keep them. The stamp may be revealing: anybody knows what is written on it?

27th February 2005, 09:08 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	I see what Ariel is saying, a military sabre blade. I think it is important to remember the Russian presence in Afghanistan, long before the unfortunate events of 1979....'The Great Game' as the geo-political situation there was termed by author Peter Hopkirk in his book of the same name. The Russian military shashkas of course carried military form sabre blades. The reference to one of these dagger/short sword weapons with Bukharen blade was simply to correspond with known recycling/refurbishing of older weapons, possibly damaged or even earlier finds from sites of combat or skirmishes. It is quite possible that earlier British military sabre blades may have been used for many weapons. This had been a standard practice to use either captured or discarded British blades throughout the 19th century. Actually these blades seem to turn up everywhere! There are many tulwars that are presumably from native cavalry regiments that use M1796 British cavalry blades.It is ironic and a strong testament to the quality of these British blades, considering the scandals of the end of the 18th century pitting the quality of British blades against imported German blades, that they found use in many countries over the next century. Best regards, Jim

27th February 2005, 09:57 PM	#4
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I haven't got a whole lot to add to the already excellent statements on this old warrior except to add that if you look very carefully at the upper edges of the hilt, they seem to have been re-shaped somewhat on both sides, so some small "ears" can't be entirely ruled out, IMO, although later Russian shaqas seemed to tend away from traditional ears as well. As to nomenclature, I've also seen the type referred to as a "pathan knife", as well as a karud and choora. I've also seen some recently that are in the true Salwar sabre size range and being sold as such, but that lack the T-spine and seem to have one or two fullers. I know that Windlass Steelcrafts in India made a duplicate/replica that was offered in United Cutlery for a while that also lacked the T-spine, but those had no fuller that I was able to discern. My only guess would be that in areas like this that border a traditional weapon style, local smiths might be influenced by those that they've seen yet modify it according to what their own people are more familiar with? This one, by the way, is a beautiful piece, in my opinion as I love the "battle trophies" that are on their 2nd and 3rd incarnation yet still remain true user weapons, often in combat. Mike

28th February 2005, 02:12 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I see what you mean (reworked pommel). However, Central Asian shashkas had a very peculiar handle: as opposed to the Ccaucasian pattern, they had a relatively narrow handle near the bolster and a gradual widening toward the ears. Not seen here. As to Jim's suggestion of the European origin of the blade, what about the Islamic marking? All in all, we should admit that all our best guesses are just...guesses. It is impossible to be certain about the precise origin/history of a weapon on it's 3rd or 4th re-incarnation. Suffice it to say that this dagger saw a lot in its life and can tell rather brutal stories.

28th February 2005, 02:51 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The nonburred rivets appear to be fairly straightforward repairs to the hilt. Those near the bolster appear to be re-affixing a chipped off piece of horn, and it seems that at least one of them is a nail. The one at the butt may have been added to pull the horn scales together if they were seperating with age-warpage. The part-length tang is interesting. There is a style bearing a name like bytzak; a varient of "bichaq" I should think, that is essentially a pesh-kabz with a non-reinforced spine; sometimes grooved, sometimes not. Some look much like this, but I still think this is a reground, probably rehilted sabre blade.

28th February 2005, 03:50 AM	#7
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	It seems to me that some of the only blades available in Afghanistan that could be taken down to this form are old bayonet blades; some of them have a T-shaped spine.