keris and spirit

David · 8th May 2007, 02:09 PM

Iron/nickel meteorite is readily available. I was just at a Gem & Mineral show this past weekend and the going rate seemed to be somewhere around .32 cents a gram. That's about $143 USD a pound. I have no idea just how much material you would need to create a keris with all meteorite pamor, but it wouldn't be too outrageous. However...Kai makes a good point. Finding a skilled keris smith who could work the material correctly might be more difficult.
Raden, i believe that even in 2005 most if not all of the work was being done by Empu Djeno's apprentices, with him merely supervising. It is very possible that your keris is still in process. You might want to try to make contact to find out. I assume that if you ordered a keris that some money must have changed hands.

Raden Usman Djogja · 9th May 2007, 01:22 AM

David, Alan & Kai

Let me express happiness before continuing the discussion. This morning, finally, I got the cell number of Mr. Sungkowo, a foster son of Empu Djeno. He informed me that my commisioned keris had finished before Empu Djeno passed away. He will deliver this commisioned keris to my house in Yogyakarta tomorrow morning. Simply, I am very happy to know about it.

Alan, your comments have very deep meanings. Okay, I am going to contemplate to grasp what exactly messages you want to deliver.

Kai, I have open threads you reccomended. Sigh... long, but fruitful. Thank you.

David, yes, you are right. Considering his age dan health, Empu Djeno said that he would be assisted by apprentices, especially his foster son, Sungkowo. The main role of Empu Djeno is in supervision, in final steps and, most important for me, in ritual aspects. I agreed with those preconditions.

According to meteorite, the long threads I read (recommended by Kai) has opened broder my knowlegde of keris. However, I am still interested to find meteorite which is possibly used as material for keris. Do you think the meteorite you saw past weekend is "the good" one? One pound is equivalent to how many grams? It is said that to make a kris need around 200 grams. Moreover, instead of using single source of meteorite, perhaps it will be wiser to use two or more sources. Even, now I don't know to whom I can commision
a very fine "court" keris.

David · 9th May 2007, 03:20 AM

If i recall correctly there are approximately 28 grams in an ounce and there are 16 ounces in in a pound. 2.2 pounds equals a kilogram. I am sure there must be a simple conversion equation for this.

At .32 cents a gram a 200 gram meteorite would only be about $64 USD so that's not really that bad is 200 grams is all you need.

I don't know for sure if the type of meteorite i saw this past weekend is ideal for pamor, but it was very dense and highly magnetic.

You can easily find it of eBay, but i am afraid you won't find any Pandai there.

kai · 9th May 2007, 08:25 AM

Hello Raden,

Quote:

finally, I got the cell number of Mr. Sungkowo, a foster son of Empu Djeno. He informed me that my commisioned keris had finished before Empu Djeno passed away. He will deliver this commisioned keris to my house in Yogyakarta tomorrow morning.

Congratulations!

Quote:

I am still interested to find meteorite which is possibly used as material for keris. Do you think the meteorite you saw past weekend is "the good" one? One pound is equivalent to how many grams? It is said that to make a kris need around 200 grams. Moreover, instead of using single source of meteorite, perhaps it will be wiser to use two or more sources.

I certainly didn't want to discourage you!

Most meteorites found are small, so you'll most likely have to get a bunch.

You'll want meteorites with a high nickel content. If you know the area it has been collected from, you can search for a published analysis (most meteorites are bits and pieces from larger "mother meteorites" which helps to extrapolate).

Solyom & Solyom mention 50g pure nickel used for their kris. Of course, the content in meteorites is lower and they may possibly need to be forged together with iron and almost certainly extensively refined by repeated forging to obtain malleable metal for pamor work, so you'll need to account for considerable loss of material before the actual blade can be worked on...

BTW, some modern knife makers have also experimented with meteorites as material AFAIK. An Internet search may give you additional hints to avoid possible pit-falls, etc.

Quote:

Even, now I don't know to whom I can commision
a very fine "court" keris.

Am I correct to assume that Mr. Sungkowo will have received extensive teachings also in the mystical/ritual aspects during Empu Djeno's last years?

Maybe Alan can offer some more suggestions?

Regards,
Kai

Raden Usman Djogja · 9th May 2007, 09:43 AM

Friends,

I got a private message. Perhaps, this message was from one of you. I am afraid I can not open it. So, would you please to reemail me through this following email address: oosmaand@yahoo.com. Thank you.

Kai, firstly thank you. Secondly, of course, meteorites will be used only as a tiny part of Keris. My concern is, at least, there will be extraterrestrial content. Even, because of lack of technology, the empu/Smith cannot forge it, then becoming "pamor mungul", it doesn' matter for me.

I have never bought anything through eBay. Is it difficult? Can I pay through Western Union? Now, I don't even have a bank account in Africa. I save money "uder the pillow". Yes, this is Africa. But I enjoy the rest. And, in which eBay, where can I get good quality and reasonable price of meteorite?

As a know, your assumption is right. Smith/Empu Djeno said that he had transferred most of his knowledge to Sungkowo. However, I have never met personally with "Smith" Sungkowo. Morever, I do not see his fully own creation, either. Perhaps, for my own collection, I am quite selective. Usually, I don't buy unstandard Keris such as "nerjang landep, pegat wojo, tugel pesi (does anyone give english translation for these terms, please? I want to learn English, too)"

David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.

pakana · 9th May 2007, 10:47 AM

Hello dear kerislovers,

First, I was happy to read the new thread by Raden.Most threads in this forum deal with the technical aspect of keris, and very few about the mystical one.Even when I post a question about that matter, no one bothers to reply!!

Of course this is a forum that the major part of the people that participate are westerners, and us westerners have a more realistic approach in spiritual matters, comparing with the Eastern people. I can understand that because my country Greece is at the middle point between West and East. So we have an attitude very pragmatic, and at the same time metaphisical

Maybe a lot of people here afraid to put down their experiences in the mystical side of keris, with the fear of maybe be misunderstood and laughed of. Or maybe they DO have incidents assosiated with keris, but they refuse to share because of some oath or something.

But I think that it is wrong to separate the pragmatic and the mystical side of keris, because these are one. Don't forget that keris were used more as a ritual object, and less as a stabing weapon.

George

Alam Shah · 9th May 2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.

eBay USA: http://www.ebay.com/

You can search "canyon diablo". This is an iron meteorite.

Info about this meteorite:
http://www.alaska.net/~meteor/CDinfo.htm

ganjawulung · 9th May 2007, 11:23 AM

Would you mind if I join the "mysticism sharing", Raden?

There is a good book I've read on it (not finished yet), "Mysticism in Java", written by an anthropologist Niels Mulder (2005). Although in English, it is published by an Indonesian publisher, Kanisius in Yogyakarta (2005).

This not a promotion of that book, of course. I just want to share with you all.. This book is about an understanding of Javanese mysticism, and the ethics and patterns of thought that stem from it. It is esential to fathom the public discourse in Indonesia. Why Javanese? Because the Javanese form by far the largest ethnic group of the island nation (there are around 30.000 islands in Indonesia). The Javanese -- according to Niels Mulder -- are the dominating force in politics and national culture, and their ideas and beliefs from the essence of Indonesian ideology. In this book, Niels Mulder analyses the old heritage, and demonstrates its relationships with the current effort to create a national ideology and identity.

Dr Niels Mulder is not new to Indonesian. He is an independent anthropologist who conducted field research in Indonesia in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Among his books are, "Inside Indonesian Society: Cultural Change in Java", and also, "Inside Southeast Asia: Religion, Everyday Life, Cultural Change. He wrote also "Inside Thai Society: An Interpretation of Everyday Life.

Mulder's style of writing is entertaining. Thus, it makes his books easily accessible to anyone interested in the working of South-east Asian Society.

And this very book on Mysticism in Java, is not expensive. Available in almost big book stores in Indonesia such as Gramedia, or Gunung Agung. It cost only Rp 35.000, or about 3,5 euro.

I said to you once again, this is not a promotion. Or even an advertorial...

Alam Shah · 9th May 2007, 12:31 PM

Raden if you could find a smith who is willing to work with the meteorite materials, let us know. I have 3 different types of meteorite which can be used for a single keris blade.

Some considerations that I have for making the blade is trusting the smith, (with my meteorites). Unless, I'm there to witness the blade making process, there is a concern that the meteorite might not actually be used on my blade.

Besides this, the outcome of the pamor and finishing on the blade...hmmm...

Do let us know your progress...

Raden Usman Djogja · 9th May 2007, 01:43 PM

Ganjawulung. Let you join the discussion with honors, Sir. The title of the book you have been reading is very provocative using term Java rather than Indonesia. But anyway, the writer must have a strong reason. I will read that book as soon as I get it. In which part, does mysticism differ with religion since none see the shape of God? Yes, all we see God through His existence. When we feel His presence, who give an authority to claim that my way is religious while other way is mysticiuos or paganious. I am afraid that God himself doesn give an authority to other entities to make a claim. Only us, as human being, feel that God has trusted us to make such judgment.

Alam Shah. This morning (GMT) or afternoon (GMT+7/Indonesia), I called Smith Sungkowo. He has already sent my comissioned keris to my parents' home at 10.00 GMT+7. During discussion, he said that he continued what late Smith Djeno did as Empu/Smith Keris. Now, he is making a keris comissioned by Malay (not mentioned clearly who). I don't know the outcome of my comissioned keris yet. Even not watching yet, I enjoy my feeling that, since now, I have a keris which made for me personally. It is very very very unique feeling. Perhaps, one of kerislovers, here, have ever had same feeling like me right now?

As I know, the late Smith Djeno made one or two keris(es) comissioned by the late Hamengkubowono IX. At that time, he used Prambanan meteorite. If at that time, Sungkowo involved as panjak/apprentice, so logically, he has an experience to deal with meteorite. Nevertheless, it is not a guarantee that he will be able to do by his own ability without supervised by late Smith Djeno. Perhaps, you can ask directly to him according this matter.

Alam, I have checked eBay. Unfortunately, the is no Senegal in eBay list. I dont have local bank account, either.

9th May 2007, 01:22 AM	#2
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	I am very happy today David, Alan & Kai Let me express happiness before continuing the discussion. This morning, finally, I got the cell number of Mr. Sungkowo, a foster son of Empu Djeno. He informed me that my commisioned keris had finished before Empu Djeno passed away. He will deliver this commisioned keris to my house in Yogyakarta tomorrow morning. Simply, I am very happy to know about it. Alan, your comments have very deep meanings. Okay, I am going to contemplate to grasp what exactly messages you want to deliver. Kai, I have open threads you reccomended. Sigh... long, but fruitful. Thank you. David, yes, you are right. Considering his age dan health, Empu Djeno said that he would be assisted by apprentices, especially his foster son, Sungkowo. The main role of Empu Djeno is in supervision, in final steps and, most important for me, in ritual aspects. I agreed with those preconditions. According to meteorite, the long threads I read (recommended by Kai) has opened broder my knowlegde of keris. However, I am still interested to find meteorite which is possibly used as material for keris. Do you think the meteorite you saw past weekend is "the good" one? One pound is equivalent to how many grams? It is said that to make a kris need around 200 grams. Moreover, instead of using single source of meteorite, perhaps it will be wiser to use two or more sources. Even, now I don't know to whom I can commision a very fine "court" keris.

9th May 2007, 12:31 PM	#9
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Raden if you could find a smith who is willing to work with the meteorite materials, let us know. I have 3 different types of meteorite which can be used for a single keris blade. Some considerations that I have for making the blade is trusting the smith, (with my meteorites). Unless, I'm there to witness the blade making process, there is a concern that the meteorite might not actually be used on my blade. Besides this, the outcome of the pamor and finishing on the blade...hmmm... Do let us know your progress... Last edited by Alam Shah; 9th May 2007 at 04:20 PM.

8th May 2007, 02:09 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Iron/nickel meteorite is readily available. I was just at a Gem & Mineral show this past weekend and the going rate seemed to be somewhere around .32 cents a gram. That's about $143 USD a pound. I have no idea just how much material you would need to create a keris with all meteorite pamor, but it wouldn't be too outrageous. However...Kai makes a good point. Finding a skilled keris smith who could work the material correctly might be more difficult. Raden, i believe that even in 2005 most if not all of the work was being done by Empu Djeno's apprentices, with him merely supervising. It is very possible that your keris is still in process. You might want to try to make contact to find out. I assume that if you ordered a keris that some money must have changed hands.

9th May 2007, 03:20 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	If i recall correctly there are approximately 28 grams in an ounce and there are 16 ounces in in a pound. 2.2 pounds equals a kilogram. I am sure there must be a simple conversion equation for this. At .32 cents a gram a 200 gram meteorite would only be about $64 USD so that's not really that bad is 200 grams is all you need. I don't know for sure if the type of meteorite i saw this past weekend is ideal for pamor, but it was very dense and highly magnetic. You can easily find it of eBay, but i am afraid you won't find any Pandai there.

9th May 2007, 09:43 AM	#5
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Friends, I got a private message. Perhaps, this message was from one of you. I am afraid I can not open it. So, would you please to reemail me through this following email address: oosmaand@yahoo.com. Thank you. Kai, firstly thank you. Secondly, of course, meteorites will be used only as a tiny part of Keris. My concern is, at least, there will be extraterrestrial content. Even, because of lack of technology, the empu/Smith cannot forge it, then becoming "pamor mungul", it doesn' matter for me. I have never bought anything through eBay. Is it difficult? Can I pay through Western Union? Now, I don't even have a bank account in Africa. I save money "uder the pillow". Yes, this is Africa. But I enjoy the rest. And, in which eBay, where can I get good quality and reasonable price of meteorite? As a know, your assumption is right. Smith/Empu Djeno said that he had transferred most of his knowledge to Sungkowo. However, I have never met personally with "Smith" Sungkowo. Morever, I do not see his fully own creation, either. Perhaps, for my own collection, I am quite selective. Usually, I don't buy unstandard Keris such as "nerjang landep, pegat wojo, tugel pesi (does anyone give english translation for these terms, please? I want to learn English, too)" David, please give me the eBay address of the dense and highly magnetic meteorite you mentioned. Thank you.

9th May 2007, 10:47 AM	#6
pakana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 74	Hello dear kerislovers, First, I was happy to read the new thread by Raden.Most threads in this forum deal with the technical aspect of keris, and very few about the mystical one.Even when I post a question about that matter, no one bothers to reply!! Of course this is a forum that the major part of the people that participate are westerners, and us westerners have a more realistic approach in spiritual matters, comparing with the Eastern people. I can understand that because my country Greece is at the middle point between West and East. So we have an attitude very pragmatic, and at the same time metaphisical Maybe a lot of people here afraid to put down their experiences in the mystical side of keris, with the fear of maybe be misunderstood and laughed of. Or maybe they DO have incidents assosiated with keris, but they refuse to share because of some oath or something. But I think that it is wrong to separate the pragmatic and the mystical side of keris, because these are one. Don't forget that keris were used more as a ritual object, and less as a stabing weapon. George

9th May 2007, 11:23 AM	#8
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Would you mind if I join the "mysticism sharing", Raden? There is a good book I've read on it (not finished yet), "Mysticism in Java", written by an anthropologist Niels Mulder (2005). Although in English, it is published by an Indonesian publisher, Kanisius in Yogyakarta (2005). This not a promotion of that book, of course. I just want to share with you all.. This book is about an understanding of Javanese mysticism, and the ethics and patterns of thought that stem from it. It is esential to fathom the public discourse in Indonesia. Why Javanese? Because the Javanese form by far the largest ethnic group of the island nation (there are around 30.000 islands in Indonesia). The Javanese -- according to Niels Mulder -- are the dominating force in politics and national culture, and their ideas and beliefs from the essence of Indonesian ideology. In this book, Niels Mulder analyses the old heritage, and demonstrates its relationships with the current effort to create a national ideology and identity. Dr Niels Mulder is not new to Indonesian. He is an independent anthropologist who conducted field research in Indonesia in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. Among his books are, "Inside Indonesian Society: Cultural Change in Java", and also, "Inside Southeast Asia: Religion, Everyday Life, Cultural Change. He wrote also "Inside Thai Society: An Interpretation of Everyday Life. Mulder's style of writing is entertaining. Thus, it makes his books easily accessible to anyone interested in the working of South-east Asian Society. And this very book on Mysticism in Java, is not expensive. Available in almost big book stores in Indonesia such as Gramedia, or Gunung Agung. It cost only Rp 35.000, or about 3,5 euro. I said to you once again, this is not a promotion. Or even an advertorial...

9th May 2007, 01:43 PM	#10
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Ganjawulung. Let you join the discussion with honors, Sir. The title of the book you have been reading is very provocative using term Java rather than Indonesia. But anyway, the writer must have a strong reason. I will read that book as soon as I get it. In which part, does mysticism differ with religion since none see the shape of God? Yes, all we see God through His existence. When we feel His presence, who give an authority to claim that my way is religious while other way is mysticiuos or paganious. I am afraid that God himself doesn give an authority to other entities to make a claim. Only us, as human being, feel that God has trusted us to make such judgment. Alam Shah. This morning (GMT) or afternoon (GMT+7/Indonesia), I called Smith Sungkowo. He has already sent my comissioned keris to my parents' home at 10.00 GMT+7. During discussion, he said that he continued what late Smith Djeno did as Empu/Smith Keris. Now, he is making a keris comissioned by Malay (not mentioned clearly who). I don't know the outcome of my comissioned keris yet. Even not watching yet, I enjoy my feeling that, since now, I have a keris which made for me personally. It is very very very unique feeling. Perhaps, one of kerislovers, here, have ever had same feeling like me right now? As I know, the late Smith Djeno made one or two keris(es) comissioned by the late Hamengkubowono IX. At that time, he used Prambanan meteorite. If at that time, Sungkowo involved as panjak/apprentice, so logically, he has an experience to deal with meteorite. Nevertheless, it is not a guarantee that he will be able to do by his own ability without supervised by late Smith Djeno. Perhaps, you can ask directly to him according this matter. Alam, I have checked eBay. Unfortunately, the is no Senegal in eBay list. I dont have local bank account, either.