Khyber knife

derek · 27th February 2005, 03:52 AM

Hi,
Really nice & certainly unusual. It almost looks like something between a khyber and what is often called a choora. The base of the blade extends in an unusual way - it almost makes me think the blade was longer at one time, but it does not look like it ends "abruptly". The floral swirls are more like Indian work. Definitely interesting and beautiful.
-d

tom hyle · 27th February 2005, 04:35 AM

My first feeling is that the blade is reground from an old sabre blade. Anyone else have this feel? Is there an overall pic and my computer didn't show it for some reason? Looks more like a pesh kabz or bytzak(?) than a salwar yatagan; a dagger more than a sword?

ariel · 27th February 2005, 05:38 AM

I fully agree with Tom: the blade is reground from a saber. There still is a shade of the old curvature, the fuller is excentric (and ends unnaturally) and the very existence of wide, military type, fuller is unheard of in Salawars. Look at the side effect of regrinding: an almost Indian ricasso. The handle is nice, though.

Tim Simmons · 27th February 2005, 10:43 AM

I also agree, the scabbard is a bit at odds with the the hilt and grip.Strange to pay a cutler to do all that work on the hilt and then put it in a rough scabbard.Tim

Yannis · 27th February 2005, 11:32 AM

In my opinion this knife, more a karud than a khyber knife, had 3 stages in its life.
First it was a saber, most possibly of a shashka form. Unfortunately it was broken.
In the second stage, a very skilful master, reshaped it as a karud. The hilt looks to be the original.
In the final stage, this piece was in the hands of a poor man who used a piece of scrap metal to make a scabbard.

I have an 18th century fine Persian card in a scabbard made from an 20th century brass artillery shell! I like it a lot. In my eyes these items are more “original” because they have a story to tell.

derek · 27th February 2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

In my opinion this knife, more a karud than a khyber knife, had 3 stages in its life.
First it was a saber, most possibly of a shashka form. Unfortunately it was broken.

A shashka. That's probably it, Yannis. I could see it clearly once you said it.
-d

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2005, 06:42 PM

Hi Rick,
Thank you for posting this fascinating weapon! I totally agree with Yannis about the stories weapons can tell, and think of how many times I have heard the expression, 'if only that sword could talk!' , they can...if we can read the messages they send.
I am always amazed at the keen eye everyone here seems to have in noticing that this blade appears to have been cut down from a sabre blade. I didn't notice it, but Tom, the astute blademaster that he is, caught it instantly, and immediately his observation was reinforced. Outstanding!
I like the defined support for this described by Ariel, which details why this observation is so appropriately placed by Tom.

There have been many discussions concerning the terminology used to identify these daggers over the years. The Afghan dagger of this form which is typically straight and intended for armor piercing is termed 'choora' (the etymology of which is unclear). While these were used in Khyber regions by the Mahsud (Stone) they were certainly used by many other tribal groups as well. The engraved tang band and blade length seems to correspond with the Khyber denominator favorably in this case. One thing about these, as well as many of the much larger Khyber Knives (actually of sword size) used by the Afridis and associated Khyber tribes, is that they typically have a pierced tang button. These were to hold a cord or lanyard in the manner of a sword knot. This feature is interesting as it is common in Northern India on tulwars and on the Indian versions of 'pesh-kabz' which is the often recurved blade counterpart of this type armor piercing dagger.

We are told that in Persia, these daggers are termed 'karud', a term which also eludes etymology but is presumed to derive from 'kard', the Persian dagger with straight knife type blade and simple hilt.

An interesting characteristic of the karud, choora, pesh-kabz, Khyber knife and their variants is that the blade cross section is typically T-shaped. In the armor piercing daggers, this is of course reinforcement for thrusting penetration.

It seems that recycled sabres and blades were often used in the manner of this example in regions of Afghanistan and what is now Pakistan, and I have seen Uzbek sabres cut down into smaller working examples with similar type hilts, but with the blade retaining its sabre profile, much like a dirk.
It is interesting that the craftsman who furbished this example followed the traditional Afghan blade profile, rather than following the more standard blade form of the original. There was also a great deal of craftsmanship applied to the bolster and tang band, which I agree with Derek appears of Indian style.
The interesting mark at the forte is also extremely unusual, and may indicate possibly an armoury or arsenal mark as often found on Indian weapons.
Hopefully someone here can interpret the either Arabic or possibly Urdu script in the marking.

Best regards,
Jim

27th February 2005, 03:52 AM	#1
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi, Really nice & certainly unusual. It almost looks like something between a khyber and what is often called a choora. The base of the blade extends in an unusual way - it almost makes me think the blade was longer at one time, but it does not look like it ends "abruptly". The floral swirls are more like Indian work. Definitely interesting and beautiful. -d

27th February 2005, 04:35 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	My first feeling is that the blade is reground from an old sabre blade. Anyone else have this feel? Is there an overall pic and my computer didn't show it for some reason? Looks more like a pesh kabz or bytzak(?) than a salwar yatagan; a dagger more than a sword?

27th February 2005, 05:38 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I fully agree with Tom: the blade is reground from a saber. There still is a shade of the old curvature, the fuller is excentric (and ends unnaturally) and the very existence of wide, military type, fuller is unheard of in Salawars. Look at the side effect of regrinding: an almost Indian ricasso. The handle is nice, though.

27th February 2005, 10:43 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	I also agree, the scabbard is a bit at odds with the the hilt and grip.Strange to pay a cutler to do all that work on the hilt and then put it in a rough scabbard.Tim

27th February 2005, 11:32 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	In my opinion this knife, more a karud than a khyber knife, had 3 stages in its life. First it was a saber, most possibly of a shashka form. Unfortunately it was broken. In the second stage, a very skilful master, reshaped it as a karud. The hilt looks to be the original. In the final stage, this piece was in the hands of a poor man who used a piece of scrap metal to make a scabbard. I have an 18th century fine Persian card in a scabbard made from an 20th century brass artillery shell! I like it a lot. In my eyes these items are more “original” because they have a story to tell.

27th February 2005, 06:42 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,593	Hi Rick, Thank you for posting this fascinating weapon! I totally agree with Yannis about the stories weapons can tell, and think of how many times I have heard the expression, 'if only that sword could talk!' , they can...if we can read the messages they send. I am always amazed at the keen eye everyone here seems to have in noticing that this blade appears to have been cut down from a sabre blade. I didn't notice it, but Tom, the astute blademaster that he is, caught it instantly, and immediately his observation was reinforced. Outstanding! I like the defined support for this described by Ariel, which details why this observation is so appropriately placed by Tom. There have been many discussions concerning the terminology used to identify these daggers over the years. The Afghan dagger of this form which is typically straight and intended for armor piercing is termed 'choora' (the etymology of which is unclear). While these were used in Khyber regions by the Mahsud (Stone) they were certainly used by many other tribal groups as well. The engraved tang band and blade length seems to correspond with the Khyber denominator favorably in this case. One thing about these, as well as many of the much larger Khyber Knives (actually of sword size) used by the Afridis and associated Khyber tribes, is that they typically have a pierced tang button. These were to hold a cord or lanyard in the manner of a sword knot. This feature is interesting as it is common in Northern India on tulwars and on the Indian versions of 'pesh-kabz' which is the often recurved blade counterpart of this type armor piercing dagger. We are told that in Persia, these daggers are termed 'karud', a term which also eludes etymology but is presumed to derive from 'kard', the Persian dagger with straight knife type blade and simple hilt. An interesting characteristic of the karud, choora, pesh-kabz, Khyber knife and their variants is that the blade cross section is typically T-shaped. In the armor piercing daggers, this is of course reinforcement for thrusting penetration. It seems that recycled sabres and blades were often used in the manner of this example in regions of Afghanistan and what is now Pakistan, and I have seen Uzbek sabres cut down into smaller working examples with similar type hilts, but with the blade retaining its sabre profile, much like a dirk. It is interesting that the craftsman who furbished this example followed the traditional Afghan blade profile, rather than following the more standard blade form of the original. There was also a great deal of craftsmanship applied to the bolster and tang band, which I agree with Derek appears of Indian style. The interesting mark at the forte is also extremely unusual, and may indicate possibly an armoury or arsenal mark as often found on Indian weapons. Hopefully someone here can interpret the either Arabic or possibly Urdu script in the marking. Best regards, Jim