PI Weaponry in Spanish Museums

zamboanga · 27th February 2005, 01:49 AM

There are two samples here of Item No. 4 listed as Espada Doble China : http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/e...t=HPIM2134.jpg

I'm intrigued with this item.

would anyone know its' history?

carlo

tom hyle · 27th February 2005, 04:28 AM

Sword double China. Look like jians, perhaps the kind that go two in a case.

ariel · 27th February 2005, 06:06 AM

I am awed but not surprised: after all, the Spanish left the Philippines in 1898; thus, by definition, all pieces in the Spanish museums are much older than what we usually see.
I have seen quite a lot of "weapon plaques" from the area: they show a lot of sword types that are not even mentioned in Cato's book, but here they are in flesh and blood (pun not intended, and is bad anyway). Do we know their names?

John · 27th February 2005, 09:07 AM

Agree with Tom; Chinese Shuang (double) Jians. These paired jians are designed to fit back-to-back in the same scabbard and intended to be wielded one in each hand.

Spunjer · 27th February 2005, 12:22 PM

thx engar.
one picture that attracted my attention was this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...s/HPIM2137.jpg
...specifically the Panabas with a naga (?) hilt and ornated scabbard. beautiful!!!

tom hyle · 27th February 2005, 01:05 PM

I haven't the capability to enlarge things that others have, but it looks more like a crocodile hilt to me, and there's somehow a Visayan look about the angling.
how 'bout that Visayan cutacha? yum yum
Another one of those Y-handle "bolo"s; over here we've never seen 'em; in Spanish musea they got loads of 'em......

Spunjer · 1st March 2005, 11:48 AM

engar,
would it be safe to say that all these weapons are pre-1900?

engar · 2nd March 2005, 07:23 PM

Absolutely not! Only that Antropologic Museums PI collection begins in XIX century.

Ian · 2nd March 2005, 09:14 PM

Engar:

You really have hit what we refer to in English as the "mother lode." These specimens are an unusually large and diverse collection of Philippine weapons, some of which we have not seen before. Truly unique collections.

A critical question for me is when these specimens were collected and returned to Spain where they eventually ended up on display. Just how old are these weapons? Any ideas?

Another question -- how many more weapons are stored in the back rooms of these museums? And what about other museums outside Madrid? Is it possible that, say, museums in Barcelona could have similar collections of weapons?

It seems that a Philippine weapons collector should spend some serious time in Spain. I'm checking my Frequent Flyer miles on NWA.

Ian.

Marc · 4th March 2005, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

engar,
would it be safe to say that all these weapons are pre-1900?

No, you can't for all the pieces, but it's a very reasonable working hypothesis, at least for the Army Museum Pieces. The collection comes from pieces acquired by Officers coming back from service in the Philippines, and donating them to the museum. Them, or their widows/heirs. A few of the pieces have some kind of significance ("Keris used in the assassination attempt of Lieutenant Francisco García by a "juramentado" in Manila that resulted in the death of Corporal Enrique Vergara who died protecting his superior with his own body. Donated by Lt. García's Widow etc., etc.", this kind of thing), but the majority of them are just the idea they had on that time of what a "souvenir" was.

I'm sorry if I look a bit baffled by all this excitement but... you mean no one ever thought that if there was a place outside the Philippines themselves where these weapons could be found more ubiquitously, this place would be Spain?

Ian · 4th March 2005, 03:11 PM

Marc:

I think the surprise is not so much that these weapons are in Spain, but that they have been displayed in such numbers. Some British Museums, for example the V&A, have basically withdrawn their "colonial" weapons from public view. Many of the Indian swords that were used to illustrate the book by Egerton, and later the one by Rawson, are no longer on display -- although they can be viewed by special request.

So it is a pleasant surprise to see so many old Philippine weapons on display.

Ian.

27th February 2005, 01:49 AM	#1
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	ESPADA DOBLE CHINA There are two samples here of Item No. 4 listed as Espada Doble China : http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/e...t=HPIM2134.jpg I'm intrigued with this item. would anyone know its' history? carlo

27th February 2005, 06:06 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am awed but not surprised: after all, the Spanish left the Philippines in 1898; thus, by definition, all pieces in the Spanish museums are much older than what we usually see. I have seen quite a lot of "weapon plaques" from the area: they show a lot of sword types that are not even mentioned in Cato's book, but here they are in flesh and blood (pun not intended, and is bad anyway). Do we know their names? Last edited by ariel; 27th February 2005 at 06:42 AM.

27th February 2005, 09:07 AM	#4
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Item No. 4 Agree with Tom; Chinese Shuang (double) Jians. These paired jians are designed to fit back-to-back in the same scabbard and intended to be wielded one in each hand. Last edited by John; 27th February 2005 at 12:41 PM.

2nd March 2005, 09:14 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,515	Age of these specimens Engar: You really have hit what we refer to in English as the "mother lode." These specimens are an unusually large and diverse collection of Philippine weapons, some of which we have not seen before. Truly unique collections. A critical question for me is when these specimens were collected and returned to Spain where they eventually ended up on display. Just how old are these weapons? Any ideas? Another question -- how many more weapons are stored in the back rooms of these museums? And what about other museums outside Madrid? Is it possible that, say, museums in Barcelona could have similar collections of weapons? It seems that a Philippine weapons collector should spend some serious time in Spain. I'm checking my Frequent Flyer miles on NWA. Ian.

27th February 2005, 04:28 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Sword double China. Look like jians, perhaps the kind that go two in a case.

27th February 2005, 12:22 PM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thx engar. one picture that attracted my attention was this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...s/HPIM2137.jpg ...specifically the Panabas with a naga (?) hilt and ornated scabbard. beautiful!!!

27th February 2005, 01:05 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I haven't the capability to enlarge things that others have, but it looks more like a crocodile hilt to me, and there's somehow a Visayan look about the angling. how 'bout that Visayan cutacha? yum yum Another one of those Y-handle "bolo"s; over here we've never seen 'em; in Spanish musea they got loads of 'em......

1st March 2005, 11:48 AM	#7
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	engar, would it be safe to say that all these weapons are pre-1900?

2nd March 2005, 07:23 PM	#8
engar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 14	Absolutely not! Only that Antropologic Museums PI collection begins in XIX century.

4th March 2005, 03:11 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,515	Marc: I think the surprise is not so much that these weapons are in Spain, but that they have been displayed in such numbers. Some British Museums, for example the V&A, have basically withdrawn their "colonial" weapons from public view. Many of the Indian swords that were used to illustrate the book by Egerton, and later the one by Rawson, are no longer on display -- although they can be viewed by special request. So it is a pleasant surprise to see so many old Philippine weapons on display. Ian.