16thC African Sword

Flavio · 25th April 2007, 02:26 PM

Hi Brian, is something like this?

B.I · 25th April 2007, 02:48 PM

Well done Flavio!
That is the sword! What information do you have on it?
I did take images, but havent had a chance to take the pictures off the camera. The images will be very poor due to glass and very dim lighting, but will post them anyway.
Is that Springs book? I have it at home, but dont know it enough to recognise an image from it. As his 'home' is the BM, I figure he would have something to say about the sword.

Flavio · 25th April 2007, 03:56 PM

Hello Brian, no this is Ijzerwerk van centraal-afrika (H. Westerdijk). This sword is from Congo tribe (tribe that is located near the congo-zaire river and the first that the Europen met when they "touched" the now a days Congo shores). For what I know these swords are 19th century old but for sure they copied the Portuguese older swords (see also this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369) and they are more currencies than real weapons, but for sure there must be some older exemples that were the precedents of those that we can see today and that were real weapons

Edit: If I understand well (If the translator is correct

) in some examples the blades are imported from Europe and so at least some of these were real weapons and some still have some ivory pieces on the handle (and so no currencies at all). Where are our Belgian friends (Freddy!!!!)

???? The page is 66 (Groep X)

B.I · 25th April 2007, 04:47 PM

Hi Flavio,
It isnt my field, but I am pretty sure this is the real thing, and not 19thC. I couldnt get close to it, but it had all the asthetics of an old sword.
I think I will have to post the images later on, and maybe also get Marc and Fernando involved.

Tim Simmons · 25th April 2007, 05:20 PM

Some more from "Armes traditionnelles d'Afrique" Found around Congo and Angola. As mentioned based on old swords but not that old in themselves.

Flavio · 25th April 2007, 05:52 PM

Hello Brian, I will look forward to see your pics because since now I have seen just rusty examples on the web that are for sure not real weapons and not so old, but I have already said that there must be some older examples that were for the real use and that are the "prototype".
More on the book "Beauty in the blade" (Marc Leo Felix and Jan Elsen) there is said that these swords were produced still in recent times with the same "form" because they were also status symbol and so the shape of the blade and the hilt must remain the same over the centuries.

From Beauty in the blade:

Freddy · 25th April 2007, 07:09 PM

Here I am, Flavio. Sorry, but I had to work

Here's the translation from the book you mentioned earlier :

The area of the Kongo-tribe had the earliest European influence in Congo. This was the first region where European weapons were introduced. Especially swords from Spain or Portugal were imported into the Kongo empire. And very soon, locals smiths took over the production of this type of sword. Due to the import of guns, local production of weapons declined. The only remainin witnesses are the rare swords which were used as symbols of authority by the rulers of the Kongo empire. ...

A bit further the author continues :

The handles of most swords have perished. But some still have an ivory handle. Not all of the sword blades were locally made. Some were of European origin ...

In 'Dodelijk Mooi' (Beauté fatale or Deadly Beauty) the author states :

In the vicinity of the Zaïre (Kongo) estuary, a ceremonial sword can be found which is produced in imitation of old Portuguese swords.

Here's a pic form 'Dodelijk mooi' (with sheath).

local name : mbeele za lulendo
materials used : iron, ivory, wood, leather
collected in 1988
dimensions : 89,1 cm (sword) - 71,2 cm (sheath)
collection of Jan Elsen

25th April 2007, 02:26 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Brian, is something like this? Attached Images

25th April 2007, 03:56 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Brian, no this is Ijzerwerk van centraal-afrika (H. Westerdijk). This sword is from Congo tribe (tribe that is located near the congo-zaire river and the first that the Europen met when they "touched" the now a days Congo shores). For what I know these swords are 19th century old but for sure they copied the Portuguese older swords (see also this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369) and they are more currencies than real weapons, but for sure there must be some older exemples that were the precedents of those that we can see today and that were real weapons Edit: If I understand well (If the translator is correct ) in some examples the blades are imported from Europe and so at least some of these were real weapons and some still have some ivory pieces on the handle (and so no currencies at all). Where are our Belgian friends (Freddy!!!!) ???? The page is 66 (Groep X) Last edited by Flavio; 25th April 2007 at 04:22 PM.

25th April 2007, 05:20 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Some more from "Armes traditionnelles d'Afrique" Found around Congo and Angola. As mentioned based on old swords but not that old in themselves. Attached Images

25th April 2007, 05:52 PM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Brian, I will look forward to see your pics because since now I have seen just rusty examples on the web that are for sure not real weapons and not so old, but I have already said that there must be some older examples that were for the real use and that are the "prototype". More on the book "Beauty in the blade" (Marc Leo Felix and Jan Elsen) there is said that these swords were produced still in recent times with the same "form" because they were also status symbol and so the shape of the blade and the hilt must remain the same over the centuries. From Beauty in the blade: Attached Images Last edited by Flavio; 25th April 2007 at 06:06 PM.

25th April 2007, 02:48 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Well done Flavio! That is the sword! What information do you have on it? I did take images, but havent had a chance to take the pictures off the camera. The images will be very poor due to glass and very dim lighting, but will post them anyway. Is that Springs book? I have it at home, but dont know it enough to recognise an image from it. As his 'home' is the BM, I figure he would have something to say about the sword.

25th April 2007, 04:47 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Hi Flavio, It isnt my field, but I am pretty sure this is the real thing, and not 19thC. I couldnt get close to it, but it had all the asthetics of an old sword. I think I will have to post the images later on, and maybe also get Marc and Fernando involved.

25th April 2007, 07:09 PM	#7
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Here I am, Flavio. Sorry, but I had to work Here's the translation from the book you mentioned earlier : The area of the Kongo-tribe had the earliest European influence in Congo. This was the first region where European weapons were introduced. Especially swords from Spain or Portugal were imported into the Kongo empire. And very soon, locals smiths took over the production of this type of sword. Due to the import of guns, local production of weapons declined. The only remainin witnesses are the rare swords which were used as symbols of authority by the rulers of the Kongo empire. ... A bit further the author continues : The handles of most swords have perished. But some still have an ivory handle. Not all of the sword blades were locally made. Some were of European origin ... In 'Dodelijk Mooi' (Beauté fatale or Deadly Beauty) the author states : In the vicinity of the Zaïre (Kongo) estuary, a ceremonial sword can be found which is produced in imitation of old Portuguese swords. Here's a pic form 'Dodelijk mooi' (with sheath). local name : mbeele za lulendo materials used : iron, ivory, wood, leather collected in 1988 dimensions : 89,1 cm (sword) - 71,2 cm (sheath) collection of Jan Elsen