Is it Raja Gundala?

brekele · 24th April 2007, 11:47 PM

Hi Guys, I got informations from Indo that this blade had dapur sinom robyong.
Is there any idea maybe for making this blade look better, I mean about material
for warangka and handle. Any comment is welcome.
Hi Dave, how are you today?

brekele · 26th April 2007, 10:25 AM

Hi Guys, sorry for pics. now i tried to make it better.
there is a bit problem with warangka because many of them here.
again, is there any idea to change the warangka and handle?
OR just any comment about this keris?
The keris is straight blade and ada ada in the middle luk's shape.
Is it rare?
THANKS

HI DAVID, Thank you for your information about who Alan is.
I hope is not too late.
I tried to delete my bad pictures before but I dont know how

Dave, just teenie boy who tried to learn PC, I hope you understand. Any info Dave?
Thanks

Pangeran Datu · 28th April 2007, 12:03 PM

Hi all,

I just had a look at the second lot of pix. IMVHO, even with its wavy spine, I would call it: Sinom Wora Wari, or, at a pinch, Sinom Wora Wari Robyong ( to take into account the Greneng). I could go overboard, and call it: Sinom Wora Wari Robyong Palawija.

Just my opinion.

Cheers.

A. G. Maisey · 29th April 2007, 12:00 AM

When we attempt to affix a specific dhapur name to a blade form, what we are doing is identifying the features of a blade and comparing that assembly of features to the features specified in a recognised pakem. If the features coincide exactly with those laid down in the pakem for a particular dhapur, then we can say that the blade in question is of such and such a dhapur, in accordance with such and such a pakem.

Most pakems are Javanese, and are only applicable to Javanese blade forms.

It is not correct to apply a Javanese pakem to a Lombok blade, and then give that Lombok blade a designation intended for a Javanese blade.

Nor is it correct to invent our own dhapur names.

To give this Lombok blade a correct dhapur name we would need to use a Lombok pakem. In fact, I believe that in respect of Lombok keris we might be more correct to refer to the blade form as "bentuk", or "angun-angunan", rather than as "dhapur".

The only Lombok pakem I have available is the one provided by Djelenga, and that does not list sinom robyong.

The entire field of dhapur is very, very difficult. If one wishes to define a blade form it is perhaps better to name the features (ricikan), rather than to provide a dhapur name.

brekele · 29th April 2007, 09:04 AM

Hi Alan, Thanks for your long words and also for Pangeran Datu.
(It takes me 2 hours to open a dictionary to understand it).

I remembered conversations with a friend in Lombok.
And He told me that most of OLD KERISES in Lombok are came/made from JAWA.
And I think, I believed it....because there is no BESALEN (I have no see till now)
in Lombok that can proof those Kerises was made in Lombok.
SO, I guess ....It is oke to jugde "DAPUR" also for Lombok's kerises instead of "Bentuk or Anggun-anggunan" only. Is it right Guys?
(Alan, It's only my opinion, I'm not even junior high school yet for this subject!
and I guess you are already in university same as Alam,David,P.Datu and more other Guys and even soon you became a Doctor's Keris, he...he...he..

)

BTW, I heard about a book from Djelenga. (hard to fine)
I wish to have this book to learn more about Lombok's keris.
Hi Alan, Is it teenie boy's budget can reach price of this book?
Thanks.

David · 29th April 2007, 02:11 PM

Brekele, i would not place myself in Keris University just yet. I tend to think of myself as being more in High School as well when it comes to these studies.

It has been my understanding that many "Old Kerises" in Lombok were more likely to originate in Bali which ruled over and influenced Lombok for many years. Not to say that a Javanese keris could not appear there as well. But i suspect that this last keris you have shown is neither very old, nor from Lombak, Bali or Jawa. I could be wrong, but i suspect it is a more recent Madurese creation made in the style of a Bali/Lombak keris. Since it is made in that style i think you have dressed it correctly, but i would agree with Alan that Javanese Dhapurs would not apply.

A. G. Maisey · 29th April 2007, 10:24 PM

Lombok was settled by various groups of people, from various different places.

The original people in Lombok are the Sasaks, who are Muslim, and their keris forms reflect a Javanese origin.

Bali had colonies on and control of Lombok for extended periods of time, and the people of Balinese origin who lived (and live ) in Lombok use keris forms that reflect their origins.

Bugis keris forms are also found in Lombok , and there are groups of people in Lombok who identify themselves as of Bugis origin.

In fact, there is no distinctive "Lombok" style of keris.However, the keris styles favoured by the Sasak people often tend to be extreme. The ricikan will be emphasised by high relief work, and in other than very high quality blades, it would be judged to be crude and "kasar" by traditional Javanese or Balinese standards. More like folk art than high art.

Keris blade production had ceased in Lombok prior to the end of the 19th century.

Yes, many old keris in Lombok would have originally come from Jawa, and this is true of old keris distributed throughout South East Asia. Back in Majapahit times, and through to probably as late as the end of the 18th century, Jawa exported blades of keris, swords, spears all over South East Asia, and even as far afield as Sri Lanka, and Southern India.

However, strictly, it is incorrect to describe a blade in the context of one culture, in this case Lombok, in terms constructed to apply to a blade in a different cultural context. For one thing, it is meaningless. In a Javanese blade the words used to describe the blade have a meaning to a Javanese person. They may have no meaning, or a different meaning, in a different language.

Djelenga uses as a synonym of "dhapur" the words "bentuk" which means "shape" in Indonesian, and "angun-angunan" which is a word in Javanese, but does not make sense when used as Djelenga uses it, so obviously has a different meaning in Lombok.Since Djelenga is from Lombok, I believe he would know the correct terms to use for a Lombok keris, and he seems to demonstrate that "dhapur" is not to be used instead of "bentuk" or "angun-angunan".

In 1994 the book "Keris (di) Lombok" was written by Ir. H. Lalu Djelenga. It was sponsored by Taman Mini Indonesia in Jakarta, and was never produced commercially but given as a souvenir to certain select people.I have a photo-copy of this book.

In 2000 Lalu Djelenga released an expanded and updated version of the 1994 book. This was a small local printing and was not ---as far as I know--- distributed through the book-seller distribution network. To obtain a copy it was a matter of who you knew. It took me years to get hold of a copy of this book.My most recent information is that stocks of this book are now exhausted.

24th April 2007, 11:47 PM	#1
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	keris blade for comment Hi Guys, I got informations from Indo that this blade had dapur sinom robyong. Is there any idea maybe for making this blade look better, I mean about material for warangka and handle. Any comment is welcome. Hi Dave, how are you today? Attached Images Last edited by brekele; 25th April 2007 at 12:19 AM.

26th April 2007, 10:25 AM	#2
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	edit Hi Guys, sorry for pics. now i tried to make it better. there is a bit problem with warangka because many of them here. again, is there any idea to change the warangka and handle? OR just any comment about this keris? The keris is straight blade and ada ada in the middle luk's shape. Is it rare? THANKS HI DAVID, Thank you for your information about who Alan is. I hope is not too late. I tried to delete my bad pictures before but I dont know how Dave, just teenie boy who tried to learn PC, I hope you understand. Any info Dave? Thanks Attached Images

28th April 2007, 12:03 PM	#3
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	Hi all, I just had a look at the second lot of pix. IMVHO, even with its wavy spine, I would call it: Sinom Wora Wari, or, at a pinch, Sinom Wora Wari Robyong ( to take into account the Greneng). I could go overboard, and call it: Sinom Wora Wari Robyong Palawija. Just my opinion. Cheers. Last edited by Pangeran Datu; 28th April 2007 at 08:23 PM.

29th April 2007, 12:00 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	When we attempt to affix a specific dhapur name to a blade form, what we are doing is identifying the features of a blade and comparing that assembly of features to the features specified in a recognised pakem. If the features coincide exactly with those laid down in the pakem for a particular dhapur, then we can say that the blade in question is of such and such a dhapur, in accordance with such and such a pakem. Most pakems are Javanese, and are only applicable to Javanese blade forms. It is not correct to apply a Javanese pakem to a Lombok blade, and then give that Lombok blade a designation intended for a Javanese blade. Nor is it correct to invent our own dhapur names. To give this Lombok blade a correct dhapur name we would need to use a Lombok pakem. In fact, I believe that in respect of Lombok keris we might be more correct to refer to the blade form as "bentuk", or "angun-angunan", rather than as "dhapur". The only Lombok pakem I have available is the one provided by Djelenga, and that does not list sinom robyong. The entire field of dhapur is very, very difficult. If one wishes to define a blade form it is perhaps better to name the features (ricikan), rather than to provide a dhapur name.

29th April 2007, 09:04 AM	#5
brekele Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 208	Hi Alan, Thanks for your long words and also for Pangeran Datu. (It takes me 2 hours to open a dictionary to understand it). I remembered conversations with a friend in Lombok. And He told me that most of OLD KERISES in Lombok are came/made from JAWA. And I think, I believed it....because there is no BESALEN (I have no see till now) in Lombok that can proof those Kerises was made in Lombok. SO, I guess ....It is oke to jugde "DAPUR" also for Lombok's kerises instead of "Bentuk or Anggun-anggunan" only. Is it right Guys? (Alan, It's only my opinion, I'm not even junior high school yet for this subject! and I guess you are already in university same as Alam,David,P.Datu and more other Guys and even soon you became a Doctor's Keris, he...he...he.. ) BTW, I heard about a book from Djelenga. (hard to fine) I wish to have this book to learn more about Lombok's keris. Hi Alan, Is it teenie boy's budget can reach price of this book? Thanks.

29th April 2007, 02:11 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Brekele, i would not place myself in Keris University just yet. I tend to think of myself as being more in High School as well when it comes to these studies. It has been my understanding that many "Old Kerises" in Lombok were more likely to originate in Bali which ruled over and influenced Lombok for many years. Not to say that a Javanese keris could not appear there as well. But i suspect that this last keris you have shown is neither very old, nor from Lombak, Bali or Jawa. I could be wrong, but i suspect it is a more recent Madurese creation made in the style of a Bali/Lombak keris. Since it is made in that style i think you have dressed it correctly, but i would agree with Alan that Javanese Dhapurs would not apply.

29th April 2007, 10:24 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Lombok was settled by various groups of people, from various different places. The original people in Lombok are the Sasaks, who are Muslim, and their keris forms reflect a Javanese origin. Bali had colonies on and control of Lombok for extended periods of time, and the people of Balinese origin who lived (and live ) in Lombok use keris forms that reflect their origins. Bugis keris forms are also found in Lombok , and there are groups of people in Lombok who identify themselves as of Bugis origin. In fact, there is no distinctive "Lombok" style of keris.However, the keris styles favoured by the Sasak people often tend to be extreme. The ricikan will be emphasised by high relief work, and in other than very high quality blades, it would be judged to be crude and "kasar" by traditional Javanese or Balinese standards. More like folk art than high art. Keris blade production had ceased in Lombok prior to the end of the 19th century. Yes, many old keris in Lombok would have originally come from Jawa, and this is true of old keris distributed throughout South East Asia. Back in Majapahit times, and through to probably as late as the end of the 18th century, Jawa exported blades of keris, swords, spears all over South East Asia, and even as far afield as Sri Lanka, and Southern India. However, strictly, it is incorrect to describe a blade in the context of one culture, in this case Lombok, in terms constructed to apply to a blade in a different cultural context. For one thing, it is meaningless. In a Javanese blade the words used to describe the blade have a meaning to a Javanese person. They may have no meaning, or a different meaning, in a different language. Djelenga uses as a synonym of "dhapur" the words "bentuk" which means "shape" in Indonesian, and "angun-angunan" which is a word in Javanese, but does not make sense when used as Djelenga uses it, so obviously has a different meaning in Lombok.Since Djelenga is from Lombok, I believe he would know the correct terms to use for a Lombok keris, and he seems to demonstrate that "dhapur" is not to be used instead of "bentuk" or "angun-angunan". In 1994 the book "Keris (di) Lombok" was written by Ir. H. Lalu Djelenga. It was sponsored by Taman Mini Indonesia in Jakarta, and was never produced commercially but given as a souvenir to certain select people.I have a photo-copy of this book. In 2000 Lalu Djelenga released an expanded and updated version of the 1994 book. This was a small local printing and was not ---as far as I know--- distributed through the book-seller distribution network. To obtain a copy it was a matter of who you knew. It took me years to get hold of a copy of this book.My most recent information is that stocks of this book are now exhausted.