Golden keris

A. G. Maisey · 15th April 2007, 07:18 AM

What I have set forth is an abbreviation of the professional method of appraisal.

It is totally structured and it considers the individual market value of every component part of a complete keris. There is nothing hit and miss about it, and it is what every keris dealer in Indonesia (who wishes to remain in business) will use when he is buying , or selling, any keris.

A collector can possibly afford to take a slightly different view, because the ultimate question for every collector is not whether the price is right, but how much he likes something.

The ultimate question for any dealer is whether the price is right, not how much he likes something.

Back in the 1970's there was a dealer in Solo named Suratman. He was really a supplier of Javanese clothing and accessories, but he also dealt a lot of keris. I got into a conversation with him once about the value of a keris I was trying to buy from him, and what he said---trimmed of the window dressing---was this:-

there is a strict value for each part of a keris, but for any complete keris the value is what I can sell it for.

Any time I buy any keris I determine what I am prepared to pay for it by using the approach I outlined above. This is professionalism as opposed to the usual collector approach. It may not be possible for the average collector to be quite as analytical as a dealer will be, for the simple reason that the collector will not know the real prices of the component parts, and similarly will not be able to recognise the work of individual craftsmen, and their strong and weak points. However, the approach should still be analytical. Once you've decided if you like it or not, and whether or not you would like it in your collection , you need to look at the values of individual parts of the keris.

The difference in price between sandalwood and scented sandalwood is about 20 fold.
Silver, and silver plate about 50 fold.
Intan and yakut, about 50 fold.
Mirah (true ruby) and garnet at least 50 fold.
Tayuman, or one of the other prestige woods can multiply handle price by several hundred percent.
The craftsmen involved can provide a gaurantee of integrity. It is not just about what you can see.

With kinatah, the craftsman involved is vital.
Kinatah from Madura is relatively low cost, from Jogja, a bit more expensive, from Solo, exceptionally expensive. One would not want to pay $10,000 for a keris with Madura kinatah.

Regarding kinatah, there are several things that can look like kinatah but are not, there's brass, then there's gold plated brass, and I've seen gold paint presented as kinatah. There is an alloy called "pinchbeck" ---forget the composition---that looks like gold, and could be found sometimes. There's swasa, but that is too difficult to use for kinatah. In fact swasa is gold, but alloyed with copper down to below 14K. But kinatah is kinatah, and if its applied leaf, which is pretty easy to identify, then its true kinatah. Some gimpy work is put on with adhesive, and this can be picked up pretty easy, but the real thing is easy to ID in the hand. The various colours are because of what the gold was alloyed with, and it will always be alloyed, usually to 22K, as against 24K for pure gold. Yellowish is a silver alloy, reddish is a copper alloy. Even with 24K gold you can get different colours depending on where the gold has come from.

BluErf · 15th April 2007, 08:31 AM

Thank you for sharing the additional information, Alan. If it is not too much to ask, based on the pictures in this thread (I know it is always not reliable to assess a keris based on pictures alone), what type of kinatah is that?

Marcokeris · 15th April 2007, 10:34 AM

The two photos were made without no study, by the owner in his room using a little digital camera with flash at 1 meter (more and less) from the blade. I also did a photo using my cellular but the quality was worse.
Unfortunately flash' reflection on the gold surface doesn't show the amazing quality of work.
About stones, selut, mendak, handle and sarong I asked nothing to the seller because I had the feeling they had no influence towards blade's price
(To day I'll scanner the photo )

Battara · 15th April 2007, 07:08 PM

I know that in the Philippines and in many of the Indonesian islands, swaasa is 1/3 gold and 2/3 copper with a little silver mixed in. This makes the material have an orange look to it and is roughly 9k gold. Different mixtures of silver and copper give different colors and tones.

A. G. Maisey · 16th April 2007, 04:17 AM

G'day Kai Wee, absolutely no way known I could tell the origin of the kinatah work from even the best studio photograph. I would need to handle the keris. However, logically it is probably Madura, or maybe Surabaya (same thing) . The blade itself is not of high enough quality to spend the money involved in other than Madura work.

Marco, it depends how the price was quoted to you. If they just quoted the price of the blade, then naturally the dress had no influence on the price, but if it was a price for the entire keris, it is likely---judging from only what I can see of the selut---that the value of the dress could be equal to, or exceed the value of the blade alone.

Marcokeris · 16th April 2007, 09:26 AM

Here I put the photo of sarong

A. G. Maisey · 17th April 2007, 04:08 AM

This pic demonstrates well what I was talking about.

The wood in that wrongko is superb.

The workmanship is probably as good as the wood. Difficult to judge in only one dimension, but from what I can see, this is top quality work.

The pendok is difficult to read because of reflection, but it appears to a Solo engraved bunton in silver. Even if the quality of work is the lowest quality available, you are still looking at very heavy money.

The selut is probably silver, the stones I cannot comment on, however, if they are intan and mirah, which is likely, because of the quality of the rest of the dress, then you have moved to a new dimension.

The handle could be tayuman, but if it is not, it is more than likely that it is good quality , old.

The dress on this blade is good, and being good, is expensive.

By any measure, this would not be a low priced keris.

16th April 2007, 09:26 AM	#6
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Here I put the photo of sarong Attached Images

15th April 2007, 07:18 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	What I have set forth is an abbreviation of the professional method of appraisal. It is totally structured and it considers the individual market value of every component part of a complete keris. There is nothing hit and miss about it, and it is what every keris dealer in Indonesia (who wishes to remain in business) will use when he is buying , or selling, any keris. A collector can possibly afford to take a slightly different view, because the ultimate question for every collector is not whether the price is right, but how much he likes something. The ultimate question for any dealer is whether the price is right, not how much he likes something. Back in the 1970's there was a dealer in Solo named Suratman. He was really a supplier of Javanese clothing and accessories, but he also dealt a lot of keris. I got into a conversation with him once about the value of a keris I was trying to buy from him, and what he said---trimmed of the window dressing---was this:- there is a strict value for each part of a keris, but for any complete keris the value is what I can sell it for. Any time I buy any keris I determine what I am prepared to pay for it by using the approach I outlined above. This is professionalism as opposed to the usual collector approach. It may not be possible for the average collector to be quite as analytical as a dealer will be, for the simple reason that the collector will not know the real prices of the component parts, and similarly will not be able to recognise the work of individual craftsmen, and their strong and weak points. However, the approach should still be analytical. Once you've decided if you like it or not, and whether or not you would like it in your collection , you need to look at the values of individual parts of the keris. The difference in price between sandalwood and scented sandalwood is about 20 fold. Silver, and silver plate about 50 fold. Intan and yakut, about 50 fold. Mirah (true ruby) and garnet at least 50 fold. Tayuman, or one of the other prestige woods can multiply handle price by several hundred percent. The craftsmen involved can provide a gaurantee of integrity. It is not just about what you can see. With kinatah, the craftsman involved is vital. Kinatah from Madura is relatively low cost, from Jogja, a bit more expensive, from Solo, exceptionally expensive. One would not want to pay $10,000 for a keris with Madura kinatah. Regarding kinatah, there are several things that can look like kinatah but are not, there's brass, then there's gold plated brass, and I've seen gold paint presented as kinatah. There is an alloy called "pinchbeck" ---forget the composition---that looks like gold, and could be found sometimes. There's swasa, but that is too difficult to use for kinatah. In fact swasa is gold, but alloyed with copper down to below 14K. But kinatah is kinatah, and if its applied leaf, which is pretty easy to identify, then its true kinatah. Some gimpy work is put on with adhesive, and this can be picked up pretty easy, but the real thing is easy to ID in the hand. The various colours are because of what the gold was alloyed with, and it will always be alloyed, usually to 22K, as against 24K for pure gold. Yellowish is a silver alloy, reddish is a copper alloy. Even with 24K gold you can get different colours depending on where the gold has come from.

15th April 2007, 08:31 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thank you for sharing the additional information, Alan. If it is not too much to ask, based on the pictures in this thread (I know it is always not reliable to assess a keris based on pictures alone), what type of kinatah is that?

15th April 2007, 10:34 AM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	The two photos were made without no study, by the owner in his room using a little digital camera with flash at 1 meter (more and less) from the blade. I also did a photo using my cellular but the quality was worse. Unfortunately flash' reflection on the gold surface doesn't show the amazing quality of work. About stones, selut, mendak, handle and sarong I asked nothing to the seller because I had the feeling they had no influence towards blade's price (To day I'll scanner the photo )

15th April 2007, 07:08 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I know that in the Philippines and in many of the Indonesian islands, swaasa is 1/3 gold and 2/3 copper with a little silver mixed in. This makes the material have an orange look to it and is roughly 9k gold. Different mixtures of silver and copper give different colors and tones.

16th April 2007, 04:17 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	G'day Kai Wee, absolutely no way known I could tell the origin of the kinatah work from even the best studio photograph. I would need to handle the keris. However, logically it is probably Madura, or maybe Surabaya (same thing) . The blade itself is not of high enough quality to spend the money involved in other than Madura work. Marco, it depends how the price was quoted to you. If they just quoted the price of the blade, then naturally the dress had no influence on the price, but if it was a price for the entire keris, it is likely---judging from only what I can see of the selut---that the value of the dress could be equal to, or exceed the value of the blade alone.

17th April 2007, 04:08 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	This pic demonstrates well what I was talking about. The wood in that wrongko is superb. The workmanship is probably as good as the wood. Difficult to judge in only one dimension, but from what I can see, this is top quality work. The pendok is difficult to read because of reflection, but it appears to a Solo engraved bunton in silver. Even if the quality of work is the lowest quality available, you are still looking at very heavy money. The selut is probably silver, the stones I cannot comment on, however, if they are intan and mirah, which is likely, because of the quality of the rest of the dress, then you have moved to a new dimension. The handle could be tayuman, but if it is not, it is more than likely that it is good quality , old. The dress on this blade is good, and being good, is expensive. By any measure, this would not be a low priced keris.