Golden keris

Henk · 12th April 2007, 06:11 PM

BluErf and David are right!!

Just buy something like this when you're desperately seeking for a reason to divorce.

I think I prefer a bad marriage above loosing money to something like this

cahaya · 13th April 2007, 03:10 AM

Hi,....i think the kinatah is new, the motif of kinatah is lung-lungan of orchid, n the kinatah not ditail work like the older kris specially in the orchid

A. G. Maisey · 13th April 2007, 03:48 AM

Not the best of this type of thing that I've seen, but I wouldn't be prepared to condemn it out of hand. It could well be better in the hand than in the pic. As for price, well, all things have a value, and if the price coincides with the value, then its OK.

David · 13th April 2007, 03:09 PM

You are right Alan. And the image quality of these pictures are tough to read due to some bad photoshop and sizing. It may well look a bit better in hand. I don't think we are condemning this keris outright per se, but given Marco's remarks about price and divorce

i think the implication is that this keris is probably being presented as something it is not. No big surprise there though, i guess.

A. G. Maisey · 14th April 2007, 03:19 AM

Yeah, possibly, but even if it is being presented as exactly what it is, and the rest of the dress---wrongko, pendok--- is good to top quality, it could represent a lot of money.

There's a lot of gold on that blade. Kinatah work is not cheap, and if it is good quality brand new kinatah work, you're looking big money before you go anywhere.

What are stones in the selut and mendak?

What is the material?

What is the level of craftsmanship?

What is the handle material?

Old handle?

Level of quality?

Level of condition?

New handle?

Who made it?

Who made the warangka?

What is the material?

Who made the pendok, what type of pendok?

What material?

What weight of material?

This is the way you appraise a keris. You don't just look at it as a totality and say :- "No!!!"---or alternatively "Yes!!!"

You look at each separate part, calculate the value, add these values, and sometimes add a little extra, or subtract a little extra, because of external factors. If the asking price coincides with the value, you're in business,provided you personally like it. If you don't like it, you pass. If the asking price is silly, you pass. If the asking price is close, you bargain.

Then there's the question of how much expenditure it takes to generate divorce threats. I know a bloke who divorced his wife because she put $100 through a poker machine after he told her not to.

BluErf · 14th April 2007, 04:52 AM

Hello Alan,

That is a very rational way of looking at kerises. A bottom-up approach, I'd say.

I start by looking at a keris in totality. The keris must look 'right' to me. That means conforming to standards of 'properness' that has been ingrained into me through what I have learnt, and through my experience from handling kerises. Further to that, I must like the keris before I look any further.

Then, I'd go into the details of each part, the workmanship, the fit with the other parts of the keris. Who made it may not be so important because famous makers can have bad works (sometimes) too.

Finally, when I decide that I like the piece, then I ask about the price. The price would probably have gone through some tacit assessment based on the "gut feel" sum value of the individual parts, but I won't go into the details of how much each part would probably cost. Also, I'd try to recall any 'benchmark' sales of similar pieces and compare the price to that. After all, the price is determined by the market.

Its a rather unstructured process, but I think it works well for me.

BluErf · 14th April 2007, 04:58 AM

All that glitters is not gold - how do we know if the kinatah really contains gold?

I have a picture of an old Javanese sangkelet with old, worn off kinatah on it. That really looked like gold to me, resembling the pale yellow tone of pure gold (I had a pure gold ring for reference). It is shiny for sure, but it has a 'muted' soft shine.

The new kinatah works often look 'hard', and very very yellow, very very shiny. I suppose it is some sort of alloy with gold in it?

David · 14th April 2007, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then there's the question of how much expenditure it takes to generate divorce threats. I know a bloke who divorced his wife because she put $100 through a poker machine after he told her not to.

All points well taken Alan.

A. G. Maisey · 15th April 2007, 07:18 AM

What I have set forth is an abbreviation of the professional method of appraisal.

It is totally structured and it considers the individual market value of every component part of a complete keris. There is nothing hit and miss about it, and it is what every keris dealer in Indonesia (who wishes to remain in business) will use when he is buying , or selling, any keris.

A collector can possibly afford to take a slightly different view, because the ultimate question for every collector is not whether the price is right, but how much he likes something.

The ultimate question for any dealer is whether the price is right, not how much he likes something.

Back in the 1970's there was a dealer in Solo named Suratman. He was really a supplier of Javanese clothing and accessories, but he also dealt a lot of keris. I got into a conversation with him once about the value of a keris I was trying to buy from him, and what he said---trimmed of the window dressing---was this:-

there is a strict value for each part of a keris, but for any complete keris the value is what I can sell it for.

Any time I buy any keris I determine what I am prepared to pay for it by using the approach I outlined above. This is professionalism as opposed to the usual collector approach. It may not be possible for the average collector to be quite as analytical as a dealer will be, for the simple reason that the collector will not know the real prices of the component parts, and similarly will not be able to recognise the work of individual craftsmen, and their strong and weak points. However, the approach should still be analytical. Once you've decided if you like it or not, and whether or not you would like it in your collection , you need to look at the values of individual parts of the keris.

The difference in price between sandalwood and scented sandalwood is about 20 fold.
Silver, and silver plate about 50 fold.
Intan and yakut, about 50 fold.
Mirah (true ruby) and garnet at least 50 fold.
Tayuman, or one of the other prestige woods can multiply handle price by several hundred percent.
The craftsmen involved can provide a gaurantee of integrity. It is not just about what you can see.

With kinatah, the craftsman involved is vital.
Kinatah from Madura is relatively low cost, from Jogja, a bit more expensive, from Solo, exceptionally expensive. One would not want to pay $10,000 for a keris with Madura kinatah.

Regarding kinatah, there are several things that can look like kinatah but are not, there's brass, then there's gold plated brass, and I've seen gold paint presented as kinatah. There is an alloy called "pinchbeck" ---forget the composition---that looks like gold, and could be found sometimes. There's swasa, but that is too difficult to use for kinatah. In fact swasa is gold, but alloyed with copper down to below 14K. But kinatah is kinatah, and if its applied leaf, which is pretty easy to identify, then its true kinatah. Some gimpy work is put on with adhesive, and this can be picked up pretty easy, but the real thing is easy to ID in the hand. The various colours are because of what the gold was alloyed with, and it will always be alloyed, usually to 22K, as against 24K for pure gold. Yellowish is a silver alloy, reddish is a copper alloy. Even with 24K gold you can get different colours depending on where the gold has come from.

12th April 2007, 06:11 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	BluErf and David are right!! Just buy something like this when you're desperately seeking for a reason to divorce. I think I prefer a bad marriage above loosing money to something like this

13th April 2007, 03:10 AM	#2
cahaya Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 49	Hi,....i think the kinatah is new, the motif of kinatah is lung-lungan of orchid, n the kinatah not ditail work like the older kris specially in the orchid

13th April 2007, 03:48 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Not the best of this type of thing that I've seen, but I wouldn't be prepared to condemn it out of hand. It could well be better in the hand than in the pic. As for price, well, all things have a value, and if the price coincides with the value, then its OK.

13th April 2007, 03:09 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	You are right Alan. And the image quality of these pictures are tough to read due to some bad photoshop and sizing. It may well look a bit better in hand. I don't think we are condemning this keris outright per se, but given Marco's remarks about price and divorce i think the implication is that this keris is probably being presented as something it is not. No big surprise there though, i guess.

14th April 2007, 03:19 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yeah, possibly, but even if it is being presented as exactly what it is, and the rest of the dress---wrongko, pendok--- is good to top quality, it could represent a lot of money. There's a lot of gold on that blade. Kinatah work is not cheap, and if it is good quality brand new kinatah work, you're looking big money before you go anywhere. What are stones in the selut and mendak? What is the material? What is the level of craftsmanship? What is the handle material? Old handle? Level of quality? Level of condition? New handle? Who made it? Who made the warangka? What is the material? Who made the pendok, what type of pendok? What material? What weight of material? This is the way you appraise a keris. You don't just look at it as a totality and say :- "No!!!"---or alternatively "Yes!!!" You look at each separate part, calculate the value, add these values, and sometimes add a little extra, or subtract a little extra, because of external factors. If the asking price coincides with the value, you're in business,provided you personally like it. If you don't like it, you pass. If the asking price is silly, you pass. If the asking price is close, you bargain. Then there's the question of how much expenditure it takes to generate divorce threats. I know a bloke who divorced his wife because she put $100 through a poker machine after he told her not to.

14th April 2007, 04:52 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hello Alan, That is a very rational way of looking at kerises. A bottom-up approach, I'd say. I start by looking at a keris in totality. The keris must look 'right' to me. That means conforming to standards of 'properness' that has been ingrained into me through what I have learnt, and through my experience from handling kerises. Further to that, I must like the keris before I look any further. Then, I'd go into the details of each part, the workmanship, the fit with the other parts of the keris. Who made it may not be so important because famous makers can have bad works (sometimes) too. Finally, when I decide that I like the piece, then I ask about the price. The price would probably have gone through some tacit assessment based on the "gut feel" sum value of the individual parts, but I won't go into the details of how much each part would probably cost. Also, I'd try to recall any 'benchmark' sales of similar pieces and compare the price to that. After all, the price is determined by the market. Its a rather unstructured process, but I think it works well for me.

14th April 2007, 04:58 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	All that glitters is not gold - how do we know if the kinatah really contains gold? I have a picture of an old Javanese sangkelet with old, worn off kinatah on it. That really looked like gold to me, resembling the pale yellow tone of pure gold (I had a pure gold ring for reference). It is shiny for sure, but it has a 'muted' soft shine. The new kinatah works often look 'hard', and very very yellow, very very shiny. I suppose it is some sort of alloy with gold in it?

15th April 2007, 07:18 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	What I have set forth is an abbreviation of the professional method of appraisal. It is totally structured and it considers the individual market value of every component part of a complete keris. There is nothing hit and miss about it, and it is what every keris dealer in Indonesia (who wishes to remain in business) will use when he is buying , or selling, any keris. A collector can possibly afford to take a slightly different view, because the ultimate question for every collector is not whether the price is right, but how much he likes something. The ultimate question for any dealer is whether the price is right, not how much he likes something. Back in the 1970's there was a dealer in Solo named Suratman. He was really a supplier of Javanese clothing and accessories, but he also dealt a lot of keris. I got into a conversation with him once about the value of a keris I was trying to buy from him, and what he said---trimmed of the window dressing---was this:- there is a strict value for each part of a keris, but for any complete keris the value is what I can sell it for. Any time I buy any keris I determine what I am prepared to pay for it by using the approach I outlined above. This is professionalism as opposed to the usual collector approach. It may not be possible for the average collector to be quite as analytical as a dealer will be, for the simple reason that the collector will not know the real prices of the component parts, and similarly will not be able to recognise the work of individual craftsmen, and their strong and weak points. However, the approach should still be analytical. Once you've decided if you like it or not, and whether or not you would like it in your collection , you need to look at the values of individual parts of the keris. The difference in price between sandalwood and scented sandalwood is about 20 fold. Silver, and silver plate about 50 fold. Intan and yakut, about 50 fold. Mirah (true ruby) and garnet at least 50 fold. Tayuman, or one of the other prestige woods can multiply handle price by several hundred percent. The craftsmen involved can provide a gaurantee of integrity. It is not just about what you can see. With kinatah, the craftsman involved is vital. Kinatah from Madura is relatively low cost, from Jogja, a bit more expensive, from Solo, exceptionally expensive. One would not want to pay $10,000 for a keris with Madura kinatah. Regarding kinatah, there are several things that can look like kinatah but are not, there's brass, then there's gold plated brass, and I've seen gold paint presented as kinatah. There is an alloy called "pinchbeck" ---forget the composition---that looks like gold, and could be found sometimes. There's swasa, but that is too difficult to use for kinatah. In fact swasa is gold, but alloyed with copper down to below 14K. But kinatah is kinatah, and if its applied leaf, which is pretty easy to identify, then its true kinatah. Some gimpy work is put on with adhesive, and this can be picked up pretty easy, but the real thing is easy to ID in the hand. The various colours are because of what the gold was alloyed with, and it will always be alloyed, usually to 22K, as against 24K for pure gold. Yellowish is a silver alloy, reddish is a copper alloy. Even with 24K gold you can get different colours depending on where the gold has come from.