An Ottoman Shamshir for Comment

tom hyle · 25th February 2005, 01:07 AM

Philip, without seeing the blades in question I can only understand what you're saying without much comment on it. It is not my experience that pinch-welded tangs and blade bases are done on a shorter lap than simple scarfs, nor are otherwise weaker or more poorly done.
BTW, the reason to do this is not only to economize on materials, though that is often spoken of. The reason to do it is that an unhardenable (usually wrought iron) blade base/tang is stronger than carbon steel, especially old suphurous carbon steel, for absorbing the shock. The idea that it is inferior in some way and done to gain economic advantage or use scrap or something is largely an industrial misconception.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2005, 01:32 AM

Philip,
Thank you very much for the note on my observations, and for addressing the comments on the etching. Quite frankly I was uncertain of which of these decorative forms were most applicable as I am not entirely familar with the Persian form you describe, although I have handled the thuluth covered weapons. With your very thorough description the differences are quite clear, and I agree the thuluth is as you well describe, much more monumental. I think that the crescent moons as often found stamped in takoubas and as noted, some kaskaras, led me to consider the often found thuluth as a possibility.

I am always incredibly impressed with your phenomenal descriptions of the dynamics of metallurgy and all aspects of edged weapons mounting and construction as well as your keen skills at furbishing. These descriptions truly give new dimension to understanding these weapons.

With the revision of the form of calligraphic motif to Persian, I am still wondering whether Egyptian or Mamluk attribution of this sabre, or kilic, may remain plausible. I would be interested in your opinion.

All best regards,
Jim

Andrew · 25th February 2005, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

The reason to do it is that an unhardenable (usually wrought iron) blade base/tang is stronger than carbon steel, especially old suphurous carbon steel, for absorbing the shock.

That's interesting, Tom. Is there a significant improvement?

tom hyle · 25th February 2005, 12:50 PM

Well, it's certainly stronger; how much I can't meaningfully quantify. Carbon steel, especially suphurous carbon steel, especially but not only when hardened is much more liable to cracking and to cracks spreading than wrought iron. In practical reality I've never broken a sword at this point, but then I've never broken a "real" sword of forged steel. Often the idea is that the blade is thick enough at the base that bending is not much an issue, and the edge at the base is not an issue on many sword types (often enough it is unsharpened, and though it's sharpened all the way down on Japanese swords, for instance, I've seen an inlaid edge on one start several inches out into the blade.). Thus, the soft blade base offers little if any disadvantage (the main danger being a bad weld) and is stronger. Whether this strength is "overkill" in practical reality, I can't say, but it seems to have been the intention, and my feeling is when someone is swinging a sword at me, every little bit helps. Also, the thick soft part of the blade is supposed to make the hard part stronger, by absorbing shock and vibration that would otherwise damage/endanger it.

Valjhun · 12th June 2006, 07:55 PM

It has reapeared on ebay:

KILIJ

Seems that it has found its scabbard too. The nicest kilij on ebay in 2006

ariel · 12th June 2006, 08:49 PM

The description suggests that the scabbard fittings were restored; no mention of the scabbard (likely new too, although we do not know whether the original one, shown to Charles, had one). The problem is with a missing (?) comma between the words "silver fittings restored scabbard": a classic "eats shoots and leaves" story.

Peter Newman · 1st April 2007, 09:15 AM

Dear all,

The discussion on this page has been fascinating and enlightening to say the least. I have recently undertaken a second year study into Ottoman warfare, and the topics presented here (amongst others) instigated an interest such that I have chosen to study Ottoman non-gunpowder weapons under assessment.

However, as this is the first time I have looked at weaponry rather than battle technique, mechanisms for provision etc I have little knowledge of the terminology for sabres in general. Could somebody kindly assist with information on the basic features and correct terminology for an Ottoman sabre, and how it might have changed overt time?

Thankyou very much for your time,

Pete

1st April 2007, 09:15 AM	#7
Peter Newman Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1	Ottoman Sabres Dear all, The discussion on this page has been fascinating and enlightening to say the least. I have recently undertaken a second year study into Ottoman warfare, and the topics presented here (amongst others) instigated an interest such that I have chosen to study Ottoman non-gunpowder weapons under assessment. However, as this is the first time I have looked at weaponry rather than battle technique, mechanisms for provision etc I have little knowledge of the terminology for sabres in general. Could somebody kindly assist with information on the basic features and correct terminology for an Ottoman sabre, and how it might have changed overt time? Thankyou very much for your time, Pete

25th February 2005, 01:07 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Philip, without seeing the blades in question I can only understand what you're saying without much comment on it. It is not my experience that pinch-welded tangs and blade bases are done on a shorter lap than simple scarfs, nor are otherwise weaker or more poorly done. BTW, the reason to do this is not only to economize on materials, though that is often spoken of. The reason to do it is that an unhardenable (usually wrought iron) blade base/tang is stronger than carbon steel, especially old suphurous carbon steel, for absorbing the shock. The idea that it is inferior in some way and done to gain economic advantage or use scrap or something is largely an industrial misconception.

25th February 2005, 01:32 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Philip, Thank you very much for the note on my observations, and for addressing the comments on the etching. Quite frankly I was uncertain of which of these decorative forms were most applicable as I am not entirely familar with the Persian form you describe, although I have handled the thuluth covered weapons. With your very thorough description the differences are quite clear, and I agree the thuluth is as you well describe, much more monumental. I think that the crescent moons as often found stamped in takoubas and as noted, some kaskaras, led me to consider the often found thuluth as a possibility. I am always incredibly impressed with your phenomenal descriptions of the dynamics of metallurgy and all aspects of edged weapons mounting and construction as well as your keen skills at furbishing. These descriptions truly give new dimension to understanding these weapons. With the revision of the form of calligraphic motif to Persian, I am still wondering whether Egyptian or Mamluk attribution of this sabre, or kilic, may remain plausible. I would be interested in your opinion. All best regards, Jim

25th February 2005, 12:50 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Well, it's certainly stronger; how much I can't meaningfully quantify. Carbon steel, especially suphurous carbon steel, especially but not only when hardened is much more liable to cracking and to cracks spreading than wrought iron. In practical reality I've never broken a sword at this point, but then I've never broken a "real" sword of forged steel. Often the idea is that the blade is thick enough at the base that bending is not much an issue, and the edge at the base is not an issue on many sword types (often enough it is unsharpened, and though it's sharpened all the way down on Japanese swords, for instance, I've seen an inlaid edge on one start several inches out into the blade.). Thus, the soft blade base offers little if any disadvantage (the main danger being a bad weld) and is stronger. Whether this strength is "overkill" in practical reality, I can't say, but it seems to have been the intention, and my feeling is when someone is swinging a sword at me, every little bit helps. Also, the thick soft part of the blade is supposed to make the hard part stronger, by absorbing shock and vibration that would otherwise damage/endanger it.

12th June 2006, 07:55 PM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	It has reapeared on ebay: KILIJ Seems that it has found its scabbard too. The nicest kilij on ebay in 2006

12th June 2006, 08:49 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The description suggests that the scabbard fittings were restored; no mention of the scabbard (likely new too, although we do not know whether the original one, shown to Charles, had one). The problem is with a missing (?) comma between the words "silver fittings restored scabbard": a classic "eats shoots and leaves" story.