Interesting Kris for comments

[Bill]

David: I think the forms of warfare varied quite a bit from Sulawesi & Moroland. As I already posted, Bill M's kris is unusual in the staight blade & x-over tip. I'm sure their must be keris that have a simular tip, but I can't recall any. The Moro were certainly capabal of fine chissel and file work but the question is when? Keep in mind, Bugis had 3 distinct groups: royalty, warriors, workers & slaves. Above all they were most successfull because of the mixture of farmers/miners & the warriors to protect them from being invaded, pre western period. The smiths for the most part made tools. All men carried a keris & there was likely a lot of average keris makers. I suspect the warrior class had smiths that catered to their needs. The construction method not being of your concern to origin, I agree. While Ricks old sword has a twisted core & is the only one I have; I do have several Philippine kris with a sandwiched core, as well, a sandwiched pamored Bugis keris. As far as the features you describe as Indonesian workmanship, I'm kind of at a loss, as those are the features of the "18thC" with the exception that the sogokan out-line is for a straight blade. As I have stated before, my opinion is that the "18thC" was for dispatching wounded men & removing their heads; Bill M's sword seems to be moving towards a slashing sword, more of a primary weapon.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

David: I think the forms of warfare varied quite a bit from Sulawesi & Moroland.

Different between them? Please explain!

As I have stated before, my opinion is that the "18thC" was for dispatching wounded men & removing their heads;

I don't see how the latter is supposed to have worked - seems akward if you're used to blades of the klewang family (Kampilan, Mandau, etc.) and Panabas.

Bill M's sword seems to be moving towards a slashing sword, more of a primary weapon.

I believe that you can stab just fine with it and with a 17.5" blade it doesn't seem to be a primary battlefield/raiding party weapon either.

Regards,
Kai

[Bill]

[QUOTE=kai]Hello Bill,


"Different between them? Please explain!"
Bugis used blowguns with poisoned darts until firearms. They practised definitive warfare, always removing the head. As experianced tool makers it seems logical they would develop a blade that would dispatch & behead. I've posted a blade in the past where one of the one curve shows continuous use. The Moro charged their opponents.

"I don't see how the latter is supposed to have worked - seems akward if you're used to blades of the klewang family (Kampilan, Mandau, etc.) and Panabas."
How did the Bugis finish off a man dazed by a poison dart and remove their head? I've posted in the past a referance by early Portuguese that described the Burgis warrior as carrying a sword just for that task; although there is no description of the sword itself.

"I believe that you can stab just fine with it and with a 17.5" blade it doesn't seem to be a primary battlefield/raiding party weapon either."
I agree Bill M's sword would not be the primary battlefield/raiding party weapon of the typical warrior. Again we get into the when and where. Clearly the sword is no longer just a stabbing weapon as the keris is. It seems the older the "18thC" the less defined the point. The center example Lew posts is what I believe the "18thC" is morphing into, a slashing sword. I have a feeling that Bill M's sword is older then you think. One needs to concentrate on the blade & disregard the fittings and scabbard. It would be interesting to know what type of tang it has.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

Bugis used blowguns with poisoned darts until firearms. They practised definitive warfare, always removing the head.

Ok, let's assume this really is a major difference although I'm not sure you're comparing both ethnic groups at the same period. (AFAIK, most folks throughout the archipelago tend to make sure that their enemies won't get back to them later on. While there are certainly several options to accomplish this, beheading is a pretty sure way... ;o)

As experianced tool makers it seems logical they would develop a blade that would dispatch & behead.

Well, in warfare you often don't have time nor do you wan't to take unneccessary risks. I'd assume that the Dyaks would have copied any superior tool for removing heads since they really prized the heads. And a spear is much safer for poking seemingly dead bodies.

I've posted a blade in the past where one of the one curve shows continuous use.

Yes, I remember your kris but I have to admit that the visible signs of use didn't convinced me that they resulted from taking heads...

How did the Bugis finish off a man dazed by a poison dart and remove their head? I've posted in the past a referance by early Portuguese that described the Burgis warrior as carrying a sword just for that task; although there is no description of the sword itself.

Yeah, but where are the artifacts from early museum collections? It's not that the European exploiters never met the Bugis up close and personal...

I have a feeling that Bill M's sword is older then you think. One needs to concentrate on the blade & disregard the fittings and scabbard.

Sure, I am focusing on the blade. It would be important to know how long it has been kept in western collections since this heavily influences preservation of the blade.

If coming out of Indonesia during the last 60 years, this pamor blade would be very well preserved if it's a 19th century piece (which I'd guess - maybe 1850 +/- 100 years).

It would be interesting to know what type of tang it has.

Yes, yes, yes! Bill (M), any chance that you let Jose craft a nice clamp for this beauty and let him have a peek at the tang while he's at it?

Regards,
Kai

[Bill M]

Hi Kai and others. I have been really enjoying this thread.

I have a few observations. I don't see this being a beheading sword, the blade is light but very well-balanced. I would think it would be a bit of work to quickly cut off a head.

I would also like to see the tang and have a better clamp, but I am concerned about the handle. It already has a crack, and I am concerned the trauma of removing it would break it, though I could be wrong. It is also on very tight, so my usual method of heating the blade would probably crack the handle.

I know the handle is wrong, but do not know what would be better? So replacing this handle might be a problem. If we could arrive at a consensus of what an appropriate handle should look like, maybe I could get a right one made(?)

Could we get some better answers if I clean and stain?

I have one other picture that may provide another clue. The metal that usually goes up into the hilt seems to come out just above the ferrule.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I would also like to see the tang and have a better clamp, but I am concerned about the handle. It already has a crack, and I am concerned the trauma of removing it would break it, though I could be wrong. It is also on very tight, so my usual method of heating the blade would probably crack the handle.

Removing the hilt by carefully heating the blade should be possible without damage. Horn hilts like this one almost always come with hairline cracks due to age and, especially, due to storage in low humidity. More often than not, this is not a major issue if one is not living in a very low humidity climate and can avoid humidity and temperature fluctuations. Actually, I'd expect any cracks to become smaller in Bill's controlled environment...

I know the handle is wrong, but do not know what would be better? So replacing this handle might be a problem. If we could arrive at a consensus of what an appropriate handle should look like, maybe I could get a right one made(?)

I'm not positive that the hilt really is wrong: Kris fitted by Malays seem to have non-standard hilts fairly often. And this one is certainly not a cheap, hurried replacement for selling this piece to unsuspecting travellers. Many of these kris also don't have clamps (or rather poor ones as in this case) but I think this blade really calls for one, and possibly a better one at that.

Could we get some better answers if I clean and stain?

I'm afraid that we're mostly limited by missing data/knowledge and possibly won't get more answers. However, if I were you, I'd at least do a vinegar stain as suitable for Moro kris. If other, more experienced folks don't come up with with more info on a likely origin, I'd tempted to try warangan on this one and to let the result decide wether to leave it on...

I have one other picture that may provide another clue. The metal that usually goes up into the hilt seems to come out just above the ferrule.

Too much gunk but it does seem to be a fairly stout tang, isn't it?

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill

As far as the features you describe as Indonesian workmanship, I'm kind of at a loss, as those are the features of the "18thC" with the exception that the sogokan out-line is for a straight blade. As I have stated before, my opinion is that the "18thC" was for dispatching wounded men & removing their heads;

I do see what you mean here Bill. I went back to Cato a took another look at the features of the "archaic" kris. The sogokan do seem similar to Bill's example, though i still think the "elephant head" looks closer to an Indo sekar kecang than to anything Moro. I still have yet to see a Moro kris with this type of pamor....but isn't it your theory that these "archaic" kris are of Indonesian origin. I'm not sure why you are arguing my assessment then since it tends to prove your argument.
As for these archaic keris having the specific purpose you describe, you lose me there. First off, weren't these "archaic" kris collected from a Moro provenence (regardless of their actual origin)? Did the Moro use blowguns and then dispatch their enemies and take their heads? Or are you saying that these "archaic" kris were actually used by the Bugis for their style of warfare, but somehow all ended up in the Philippines where they were collected?
Anyway, i do not see these early kris as being designed to be very effective for removing heads. Take a good look at the Dayak mandau for a blade that is well designed for that purpose.