Interesting Kris for comments

Bill · 28th March 2007, 10:24 PM

[QUOTE=kai]

I think you have it backwards, kinda: While the kris best known from the Moro evolved from Malay/Indonesian keris, any extant pieces whose construction speaks for an origin in Malaysia or Indonesia seem to be younger than the oldest Moro kris. I'd postulate that these were crafted after (extensive and well established) contact with Moro traders and most likely inspired by Moro trade blades.

Hi Kai, We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing. I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.

David · 28th March 2007, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Hi Kai, We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing. I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.

I didn't know this. Do ALL of the earliest "18thC"s have round tangs for sure, or is this an assumption. I don't own any of these "archaic" style kris so i don't know from my own experience. I am also not sure that calling them "18thC" kris is in our best interest since i think some of these are probably a little older than that.
I know we have been around this block before, but i do find it difficult to accept these "archaic" kris as Bugis since the blade form doesn't really resemble the bugis style of keris very much. I am also confused as to why you can't believe that these keris could possible be a "starter edition".

RSWORD · 28th March 2007, 11:04 PM

While I am not as familiar with the keris construction, this blade has a central core of mechanical twistcore sandwiched with nice lamellar cheeks. I have seen this construction in a few pieces(like the one I use to have that Bill/Chicago now has) and I have also seen a number of Moro pieces with well defined chiseling at the forte as in this example. What I have not seen as much is the sandwich type of construction in keris but as I mentioned I am not as familiar with them. My vote is that it is a Moro blade.

kai · 28th March 2007, 11:48 PM

Hello Rick,

Quote:

While I am not as familiar with the keris construction, this blade has a central core of mechanical twistcore sandwiched with nice lamellar cheeks.

That's another point I was going to bring up. The twist core already present in archaic Moro kris is quite different (from 2 bars, only in the middle of the blade) from this example (which is basically identical with the classic keris blade construction).

Quote:

I have also seen a number of Moro pieces with well defined chiseling at the forte as in this example.

We're not talking about the nice chiseling per se but rather the style in which it's executed - different from what I've seen in Moro kris...

Regards,
Kai

Bill · 29th March 2007, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I didn't know this. Do ALL of the earliest "18thC"s have round tangs for sure, or is this an assumption. I don't own any of these "archaic" style kris so i don't know from my own experience. I am also not sure that calling them "18thC" kris is in our best interest since i think some of these are probably a little older than that.
I know we have been around this block before, but i do find it difficult to accept these "archaic" kris as Bugis since the blade form doesn't really resemble the bugis style of keris very much. I am also confused as to why you can't believe that these keris could possible be a "starter edition".

I have 2 "18thC". Neither one,have I removed the hilt. One I'm sure has a keris sized round tang. The other, I can get a cleaning pick in between the blade & hilt & it appears to have a robust oval tang. Federico has posted one with a robust round tang & Lee has posted one with a retangular one. Strikes me that someone else once posted one with a retangular tang or at least confirmed it once. Only use "18thC" because Cato did, I think they are quite a bit older then that. There is enough variation to suggest many smiths made them for a extended period of time. That's the main problem in Philippine origin. They copied the style but never perfected it, don't think they would lose the knowledge. RSword: Didn't you once have a Bugis keris with the same pattern of the kris you sold me?

David · 29th March 2007, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

They copied the style but never perfected it, don't think they would lose the knowledge.

Why do you think they lost the knowledge? IMO they chose not to perfect the style of the "archaic" stabbing blade. Rather they moved on to develop it into a larger, broader slashing weapon which they believed (as do i) to be a more effective fighting tool. Given the choice in battle i would certainly choose the larger slashing blade in an instant.
Hi Rick. I have to agree with Kai. It is not the level of execution in the chiselling, but the style in which the work is done which leads me to believe this is not Moro work. The Moro were certainly capable of fine quality chiselling. Also as Kai points out, this is not the twisted core that we are familar with seeing in some Moro keris. The constuction of this keris looks the same as in pamored Indo/Malay varieties.

RSWORD · 29th March 2007, 02:48 AM

Thanks for the clarification of what you guys are seeing in the style of work at the forte. I still recall seeing Moro blades of similar construct. I am hoping some of the Moro guys will chime in. It is an interesting piece all around. I still want to point out that this blade has a central core of mechanical damascus, you can see the lines on each side, with the edges welded on. This seems more Moro in nature. Do you often find keris with a central plate with the edges welded on? Bill, I have had a few Bugis keris over the years and I don't remember a pattern exactly like this one. As I recall, they did tend to have a nice pattern down the central portion of the blade, and as I recall somewhat similar to the blade in question, but the big difference was that it was not a central core with edges welded on. It was a single blade, not of tripartite construction. Now, the handle doesn't seem terribly Moro on this piece but the scabbard to my eye looks more Moro than Malay. So, it seems to have characteristics of several cultures so is it a type of missing link? I don't know.

David · 29th March 2007, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Thanks for the clarification of what you guys are seeing in the style of work at the forte. I still recall seeing Moro blades of similar construct.

Rick, just for further clarification it is not the construct we are pointing out, but very particular stylistic differences in that construct. In other words, all the parts would be the same, it is just the way in which it is executed that is different. This blade has a very specific Indo style to the "elephant head", the tikel alis, the gonjo, the sogokan and greneng. I have also seen all of these features on Moro kris, but never execute in this very Indo manner before. You might be right about the twisted core, but there is clearly pamor at the edges as well (look by the greneng above the gonjo). I can't recall ever seeing that on a Moro keris, though one might exist out there. But the fact that all of these very Indo styles exist on a single blade leads me to believe that it was made by an Indonesian hand.

Bill · 29th March 2007, 05:18 AM

David: I think the forms of warfare varied quite a bit from Sulawesi & Moroland. As I already posted, Bill M's kris is unusual in the staight blade & x-over tip. I'm sure their must be keris that have a simular tip, but I can't recall any. The Moro were certainly capabal of fine chissel and file work but the question is when? Keep in mind, Bugis had 3 distinct groups: royalty, warriors, workers & slaves. Above all they were most successfull because of the mixture of farmers/miners & the warriors to protect them from being invaded, pre western period. The smiths for the most part made tools. All men carried a keris & there was likely a lot of average keris makers. I suspect the warrior class had smiths that catered to their needs. The construction method not being of your concern to origin, I agree. While Ricks old sword has a twisted core & is the only one I have; I do have several Philippine kris with a sandwiched core, as well, a sandwiched pamored Bugis keris. As far as the features you describe as Indonesian workmanship, I'm kind of at a loss, as those are the features of the "18thC" with the exception that the sogokan out-line is for a straight blade. As I have stated before, my opinion is that the "18thC" was for dispatching wounded men & removing their heads; Bill M's sword seems to be moving towards a slashing sword, more of a primary weapon.

kai · 29th March 2007, 10:11 AM

Hello Rick,

Quote:

I still want to point out that this blade has a central core of mechanical damascus, you can see the lines on each side, with the edges welded on. This seems more Moro in nature. Do you often find keris with a central plate with the edges welded on? Bill, I have had a few Bugis keris over the years and I don't remember a pattern exactly like this one. As I recall, they did tend to have a nice pattern down the central portion of the blade, and as I recall somewhat similar to the blade in question, but the big difference was that it was not a central core with edges welded on. It was a single blade, not of tripartite construction.

I'm pretty sure this kris/keris sundang is of 3-layered construction (San Mai) as are almost all Moro kris and keris...

This pamor pattern is common on keris Bugis - of course, the "random" types are more numerous.

Quote:

Now, the handle doesn't seem terribly Moro on this piece but the scabbard to my eye looks more Moro than Malay. So, it seems to have characteristics of several cultures so is it a type of missing link?

I'd stipulate that the scabbard isn't typical for Malay keris sundang. The brass coils seem to be off and may possibly have been added more recently. Bill, any provenance for this piece?

I don't think the blade - much less the fittings - are old enough to be even close to a missing link. Much more likely that the blade travelled a bit through the archipelago before ending up with Bill. BTW, I don't want to sound too critical: I do like this piece!

Regards,
Kai

kai · 28th March 2007, 11:31 PM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing.

Ethnic Malay keris sundang also (often?) have a round pesi, even the large examples AFAIK.

Quote:

I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.

I've seen worse starter editions, for sure!

While it is tempting to single out the Bugis which certainly had a lot of contact with the Tausug (for better or worse

), I'm a bit weary with this hypothesis due to the lack of actual keris sundang (archaic, old and even not so old exmples...) with sound provenance from that region (or even from all over Sulawesi)!

For example, I think it will be hard to completely diss the northern link: Malaya - Brunei - Sulu. We also have to keep in mind that extensive trade contacts had been established for millennia throughout SE Asia. I think there are early sources that at least the Tausug were very active seafarers from early on. So, regardless wether the rulers happened to be in good terms or were enemies, it seems safe to assume that the Moro had close contact with about any other major player in the region and beyond.

Regards,
Kai

28th March 2007, 10:24 PM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	[QUOTE=kai] I think you have it backwards, kinda: While the kris best known from the Moro evolved from Malay/Indonesian keris, any extant pieces whose construction speaks for an origin in Malaysia or Indonesia seem to be younger than the oldest Moro kris. I'd postulate that these were crafted after (extensive and well established) contact with Moro traders and most likely inspired by Moro trade blades. Hi Kai, We know the "18thC" started out with round tangs & was for stabbing. I think the earliest "kris" was a "18C", if so, who made it. I'll stick with the Bugis as the most likely suspects. Just can't believe the "18thC" was a "starter" edition.

28th March 2007, 11:04 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	While I am not as familiar with the keris construction, this blade has a central core of mechanical twistcore sandwiched with nice lamellar cheeks. I have seen this construction in a few pieces(like the one I use to have that Bill/Chicago now has) and I have also seen a number of Moro pieces with well defined chiseling at the forte as in this example. What I have not seen as much is the sandwich type of construction in keris but as I mentioned I am not as familiar with them. My vote is that it is a Moro blade.

29th March 2007, 02:48 AM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Thanks for the clarification of what you guys are seeing in the style of work at the forte. I still recall seeing Moro blades of similar construct. I am hoping some of the Moro guys will chime in. It is an interesting piece all around. I still want to point out that this blade has a central core of mechanical damascus, you can see the lines on each side, with the edges welded on. This seems more Moro in nature. Do you often find keris with a central plate with the edges welded on? Bill, I have had a few Bugis keris over the years and I don't remember a pattern exactly like this one. As I recall, they did tend to have a nice pattern down the central portion of the blade, and as I recall somewhat similar to the blade in question, but the big difference was that it was not a central core with edges welded on. It was a single blade, not of tripartite construction. Now, the handle doesn't seem terribly Moro on this piece but the scabbard to my eye looks more Moro than Malay. So, it seems to have characteristics of several cultures so is it a type of missing link? I don't know.

29th March 2007, 05:18 AM	#9
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	David: I think the forms of warfare varied quite a bit from Sulawesi & Moroland. As I already posted, Bill M's kris is unusual in the staight blade & x-over tip. I'm sure their must be keris that have a simular tip, but I can't recall any. The Moro were certainly capabal of fine chissel and file work but the question is when? Keep in mind, Bugis had 3 distinct groups: royalty, warriors, workers & slaves. Above all they were most successfull because of the mixture of farmers/miners & the warriors to protect them from being invaded, pre western period. The smiths for the most part made tools. All men carried a keris & there was likely a lot of average keris makers. I suspect the warrior class had smiths that catered to their needs. The construction method not being of your concern to origin, I agree. While Ricks old sword has a twisted core & is the only one I have; I do have several Philippine kris with a sandwiched core, as well, a sandwiched pamored Bugis keris. As far as the features you describe as Indonesian workmanship, I'm kind of at a loss, as those are the features of the "18thC" with the exception that the sogokan out-line is for a straight blade. As I have stated before, my opinion is that the "18thC" was for dispatching wounded men & removing their heads; Bill M's sword seems to be moving towards a slashing sword, more of a primary weapon.