MANDAU HANDLE

David · 24th March 2007, 04:58 PM

Yes, Ben certainly knows his stuff where Dayak weapons are involved. Hopefully he will be able to supply us with some guidelines for making these determinations.

I don't think these weapons are very well understood in the collector world and a quick look at eBay will show you that the market is currently flooded with touristy mandaus. Many of them are quite obvious. What is a bit harder to dtermine is when we see a later example that may or may not be a practical working piece as opposed to a tourist piece. It is my understanding that heads were known to be taken by the Dayak well into the second half of the 20th century.

Flavio · 24th March 2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, Ben certainly knows his stuff where Dayak weapons are involved. Hopefully he will be able to supply us with some guidelines for making these determinations.

I don't think these weapons are very well understood in the collector world and a quick look at eBay will show you that the market is currently flooded with touristy mandaus. Many of them are quite obvious. What is a bit harder to dtermine is when we see a later example that may or may not be a practical working piece as opposed to a tourist piece. It is my understanding that heads were known to be taken by the Dayak well into the second half of the 20th century.

What I don't understand is: a mandau is good only when had taken heads? in other words the mandaus were used only to take heads? And more: if one take as comparative examples only the pieces on books and museums maybe we can lost something: in african weapons, that I know just a little more, one can find pieces that are like the ones on books and also other more crude weapons that aren't beautiful enough to stay on a book but for sure old and "ethnographic" as the others.

David · 24th March 2007, 11:43 PM

Flavio, i did not intend to suggest that a mandau "is good only when (it) had taken heads". I was merely trying to establish an authentic ethnographic usage well into the latter half of the 20th century. Often when we deal with edged weapons from other cultures their authentic usage has stopped or has been serverely diminished by this point in time.

Maurice · 25th March 2007, 12:17 AM

Hi,

Maybe these pictures about hilts of the book(s) "quer durch Borneo" helps.

Best wishes,
Maurice

Dajak · 25th March 2007, 07:12 AM

Hi Al I am not alknown about the dajak stuff I also see things I never see before. there is so much old example s that never have been shown that these Items are also not in Books I went to Denmark and see 40 very rare and old pieces in an private collection that I never see .

But Bill Marsh point to get books and even go to some museums is very good.

see Quer durch Borneo and you see good example s

I even had one mandau an very nice example that was pictured in this book
( that went to an very impressive collector that does a lot off study on his weapons)

And I have also an example from an old time collector and weapon dealer that handle you will never see in any book but pictured in his selling catalogue from around 1910 saying in the that is has very old cloth on it.

So this one must be before 1850

I am trying to collect Murut stuf also now but this is more difficult because not much is written about it.

The handle off yours Bill looks like it have been smoke d but it is not.
they try to imitade the coler by smoking the have some black stuff that they use on the handle s.
It looks like this one is From Saribas North borneo I have one similar Iban.

The handle Carlos is from antler maybe but it is not made the way it should be it is an fantasy made handle maybe you understand now if you ever visit
Germany or the Netherlands you welcome her and I explain it to you

Regards

Dajak · 25th March 2007, 07:20 AM

I don't think these weapons are very well understood in the collector world and a quick look at eBay will show you that the market is currently flooded with touristy mandaus. Many of them are quite obvious. What is a bit harder to dtermine is when we see a later example that may or may not be a practical working piece as opposed to a tourist piece. It is my understanding that heads were known to be taken by the Dayak well into the second half of the 20th century

There is here in the Netherlands and grand son off an real Dajak headman IBAN who was invited back there in the 80 for an special festival no white people involved and see there people with fresh tattoo s that only where in use when heads was taking so at least in the 80 it must have been taken place. I did see some pics That I can be sure tell you all that this was for real

regards Ben

Bill M · 25th March 2007, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

The handle off yours Bill looks like it have been smoke but it is not.
they try to imitade the coler by smoking the have some black stuff that they use on the handle s.
It looks like this one is From Saribas North borneo I have one similar Iban.

Regards

Thank you Ben. I shall add your remarks to my catalog description.

here is a link to the book Quer Dutch Borneo. I found it in a free e-book you can download. I love books!!!

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17379...-h/17379-h.htm

carlos · 25th March 2007, 11:21 AM

Thanks Ben for the leason, i´m learning everyday reading the forum, but my english not is good and this is my problem.
THanks again
Carlos

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi Al I am not alknown about the dajak stuff I also see things I never see before. there is so much old example s that never have been shown that these Items are also not in Books I went to Denmark and see 40 very rare and old pieces in an private collection that I never see .

But Bill Marsh point to get books and even go to some museums is very good.

see Quer durch Borneo and you see good example s

I even had one mandau an very nice example that was pictured in this book
( that went to an very impressive collector that does a lot off study on his weapons)

And I have also an example from an old time collector and weapon dealer that handle you will never see in any book but pictured in his selling catalogue from around 1910 saying in the that is has very old cloth on it.

So this one must be before 1850

I am trying to collect Murut stuf also now but this is more difficult because not much is written about it.

The handle off yours Bill looks like it have been smoke d but it is not.
they try to imitade the coler by smoking the have some black stuff that they use on the handle s.
It looks like this one is From Saribas North borneo I have one similar Iban.

The handle Carlos is from antler maybe but it is not made the way it should be it is an fantasy made handle maybe you understand now if you ever visit
Germany or the Netherlands you welcome her and I explain it to you

Regards

Dajak · 25th March 2007, 11:46 AM

Hi Carlos
My english also bad so somethimes hard to explain things for me.

And Bill thanks for the link but I have the books I used to have the original ones but difficult to use these old ones I have 2 new ones that easy to handle

Regards , ben

Flavio · 25th March 2007, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Flavio, i did not intend to suggest that a mandau "is good only when (it) had taken heads". I was merely trying to establish an authentic ethnographic usage well into the latter half of the 20th century. Often when we deal with edged weapons from other cultures their authentic usage has stopped or has been serverely diminished by this point in time.

Hello David, mine wasn't a post against what you say but only a more general thought on these weapons

David · 25th March 2007, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

Hello David, mine wasn't a post against what you say but only a more general thought on these weapons

No problem Flavio. I took no offense. I was merely trying to qualify my statement for better understanding.
Ben, i know many others posted hilts, but i would still appreciate your opinion on the one i posted early in the thread. To me it appears to have been carved by an artful hand and has a nice patina. It doesn't apppear to be very old, but my impression have led me to believe it to be pre-WW2. Does the style of carving allow you to determine the region of origin as well. Thanks.

VANDOO · 26th March 2007, 03:59 AM

JUST TO THROW IN ANOTHER POSSIBILITY. THEY ARE DOING SOME EXCELLENT WOOD, BONE ,STONE AND ANTLER CARVEINGS IN BALI SO IT IS POSSIBLE THEY MAY BE MAKEING SOME DAYAK STYLE HANDLES THERE FOR SALE. I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME ARTISTS IN BALI WHO COULD DUPLICATE ANY MANDAU HANDLE OR SCABBARD YOU BROUGHT THEM. FORTUNATELY THEY PROBABLY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE THE PATINA AND WEAR LOOK AUTHENTIC OR AT LEAST WOULD NOT MAKE THE EXTRA EFFORT TO DO SO. THE BIG PROBLEM IS IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO TELL FOR SURE WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT BASED ON PICTURES ON THE INTERNET ESPECIALLY PATINA AND WEAR.
THERE ARE ALSO ARTISTS OF VARYING SKILL STILL MAKEING THEM IN BORNEO SOME EXCELLENT AND SOME POOR. THERE ARE SWORDS IN SHOPS THAT HAVE BEEN THERE FOR MANY YEARS AS WELL AS THOSE THAT ARRIVED RECENTLY. IF I LIVED IN BORNEO I WOULD PROBABLY TRY AND FIND THE BEST CARVERS AND COLLECT SOME OF THEIR WORK OR COMISSION SOME THAT WAY YOU WOULD HAVE GOOD PROVENANCE, EXCELLENT EXAMPLES AND IT WOULD BE AUTHENTIC DAYAK ART. UNFORTUNATELY YOU CAN'T TELL HOW GOOD A CARVER IS BASED ON WHAT YOU SEE IN A SHOP AS THEY DON'T DO THEIR BEST WORK ON A GROUP OF LIKE SWORDS BEING SENT TO THE SHOPS FOR SALE TO TOURISTS. PERHAPS THE GOVERNMENT OR MUSEUMS COULD HAVE A CARVING COMPETICIAN AND THE ARTISTS COULD SUBMIT THEIR BEST AND RECEIVE RECOGNITION, FREE PROMOTION AND REWARDS. I WOULD CERTIANLY BE INTERESTED IN SEEING SUCH A CONTEST AND WOULD CERTIANLY BUY FROM THE CARVERS I LIKED BEST IF I COULD AFFORD TO.

AS TO HEADHUNTING SWORDS MOSTLY YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THAT SWORDS MADE IN THE DAYS WHEN IT WAS COMMON PRACTICE PROBABLY TOOK HEADS. EVERYTHING ELSE RIGHT UP TO THE RECENT TIME MAY HAVE OR MAY NOT HAVE BUT MOST LIKELY DID NOT. THERE MAY BE A COMMON MACHETE, PARANG OR MANDAU THAT HAS TAKEN HEADS IN THE RECENT OUTBREAK BUT THAT HAS NO APPEAL TO ME. THE REASON COLLECTORS PREFER THE OLD ONES IS THAT THEY WERE MORE IMPORTANT TO THE TRIBES WHEN TAKEING HEADS WAS THE CUSTOM, SO MORE WORK WAS PUT INTO MAKEING THEM. A WARRIOR OF THOSE TIMES WANTED THE BEST HE COULD AFFORD AND ALL THE PROPER CHARMS AND TAILSMEN CARVED INTO OR ATTACHED TO HIS SWORD TO PROTECT HIM AND TO GIVE HIM HEADS.

josh stout · 26th March 2007, 04:09 PM

I am new to this forum, but there are some easy ways to tell that the first handle shown is a reproduction. As people mentioned, the patina is faked, but the carving is also quite crude. The lines are not deeply incised, and there are no pierced areas. The biggest telltale is that the antler chosen for the carving was too thin, which forced the carver to follow the curve of the antler rather than making something more ergonomic. The second handle posted shows much better carving, with several pierced sections, evidence of wear, and the look of a functional handle. All of the curved carvings look continuous and organic without sharp angles from power tools and shoddy workmanship. I would love to hear about the third handle shown. I have mixed feelings on it.

How long is the first mandau? Most tourist ones are on the short side.
Josh

25th March 2007, 12:17 AM	#4
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,453	Hi, Maybe these pictures about hilts of the book(s) "quer durch Borneo" helps. Best wishes, Maurice Attached Images

25th March 2007, 07:20 AM	#6
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	I don't think these weapons are very well understood in the collector world and a quick look at eBay will show you that the market is currently flooded with touristy mandaus. Many of them are quite obvious. What is a bit harder to dtermine is when we see a later example that may or may not be a practical working piece as opposed to a tourist piece. It is my understanding that heads were known to be taken by the Dayak well into the second half of the 20th century There is here in the Netherlands and grand son off an real Dajak headman IBAN who was invited back there in the 80 for an special festival no white people involved and see there people with fresh tattoo s that only where in use when heads was taking so at least in the 80 it must have been taken place. I did see some pics That I can be sure tell you all that this was for real regards Ben Last edited by Dajak; 25th March 2007 at 08:04 AM.

24th March 2007, 04:58 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Yes, Ben certainly knows his stuff where Dayak weapons are involved. Hopefully he will be able to supply us with some guidelines for making these determinations. I don't think these weapons are very well understood in the collector world and a quick look at eBay will show you that the market is currently flooded with touristy mandaus. Many of them are quite obvious. What is a bit harder to dtermine is when we see a later example that may or may not be a practical working piece as opposed to a tourist piece. It is my understanding that heads were known to be taken by the Dayak well into the second half of the 20th century.

24th March 2007, 11:43 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,220	Flavio, i did not intend to suggest that a mandau "is good only when (it) had taken heads". I was merely trying to establish an authentic ethnographic usage well into the latter half of the 20th century. Often when we deal with edged weapons from other cultures their authentic usage has stopped or has been serverely diminished by this point in time.

25th March 2007, 07:12 AM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Al I am not alknown about the dajak stuff I also see things I never see before. there is so much old example s that never have been shown that these Items are also not in Books I went to Denmark and see 40 very rare and old pieces in an private collection that I never see . But Bill Marsh point to get books and even go to some museums is very good. see Quer durch Borneo and you see good example s I even had one mandau an very nice example that was pictured in this book ( that went to an very impressive collector that does a lot off study on his weapons) And I have also an example from an old time collector and weapon dealer that handle you will never see in any book but pictured in his selling catalogue from around 1910 saying in the that is has very old cloth on it. So this one must be before 1850 I am trying to collect Murut stuf also now but this is more difficult because not much is written about it. The handle off yours Bill looks like it have been smoke d but it is not. they try to imitade the coler by smoking the have some black stuff that they use on the handle s. It looks like this one is From Saribas North borneo I have one similar Iban. The handle Carlos is from antler maybe but it is not made the way it should be it is an fantasy made handle maybe you understand now if you ever visit Germany or the Netherlands you welcome her and I explain it to you Regards

25th March 2007, 11:46 AM	#9
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Carlos My english also bad so somethimes hard to explain things for me. And Bill thanks for the link but I have the books I used to have the original ones but difficult to use these old ones I have 2 new ones that easy to handle Regards , ben

26th March 2007, 03:59 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	JUST TO THROW IN ANOTHER POSSIBILITY. THEY ARE DOING SOME EXCELLENT WOOD, BONE ,STONE AND ANTLER CARVEINGS IN BALI SO IT IS POSSIBLE THEY MAY BE MAKEING SOME DAYAK STYLE HANDLES THERE FOR SALE. I AM SURE THERE ARE SOME ARTISTS IN BALI WHO COULD DUPLICATE ANY MANDAU HANDLE OR SCABBARD YOU BROUGHT THEM. FORTUNATELY THEY PROBABLY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE THE PATINA AND WEAR LOOK AUTHENTIC OR AT LEAST WOULD NOT MAKE THE EXTRA EFFORT TO DO SO. THE BIG PROBLEM IS IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO TELL FOR SURE WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT BASED ON PICTURES ON THE INTERNET ESPECIALLY PATINA AND WEAR. THERE ARE ALSO ARTISTS OF VARYING SKILL STILL MAKEING THEM IN BORNEO SOME EXCELLENT AND SOME POOR. THERE ARE SWORDS IN SHOPS THAT HAVE BEEN THERE FOR MANY YEARS AS WELL AS THOSE THAT ARRIVED RECENTLY. IF I LIVED IN BORNEO I WOULD PROBABLY TRY AND FIND THE BEST CARVERS AND COLLECT SOME OF THEIR WORK OR COMISSION SOME THAT WAY YOU WOULD HAVE GOOD PROVENANCE, EXCELLENT EXAMPLES AND IT WOULD BE AUTHENTIC DAYAK ART. UNFORTUNATELY YOU CAN'T TELL HOW GOOD A CARVER IS BASED ON WHAT YOU SEE IN A SHOP AS THEY DON'T DO THEIR BEST WORK ON A GROUP OF LIKE SWORDS BEING SENT TO THE SHOPS FOR SALE TO TOURISTS. PERHAPS THE GOVERNMENT OR MUSEUMS COULD HAVE A CARVING COMPETICIAN AND THE ARTISTS COULD SUBMIT THEIR BEST AND RECEIVE RECOGNITION, FREE PROMOTION AND REWARDS. I WOULD CERTIANLY BE INTERESTED IN SEEING SUCH A CONTEST AND WOULD CERTIANLY BUY FROM THE CARVERS I LIKED BEST IF I COULD AFFORD TO. AS TO HEADHUNTING SWORDS MOSTLY YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THAT SWORDS MADE IN THE DAYS WHEN IT WAS COMMON PRACTICE PROBABLY TOOK HEADS. EVERYTHING ELSE RIGHT UP TO THE RECENT TIME MAY HAVE OR MAY NOT HAVE BUT MOST LIKELY DID NOT. THERE MAY BE A COMMON MACHETE, PARANG OR MANDAU THAT HAS TAKEN HEADS IN THE RECENT OUTBREAK BUT THAT HAS NO APPEAL TO ME. THE REASON COLLECTORS PREFER THE OLD ONES IS THAT THEY WERE MORE IMPORTANT TO THE TRIBES WHEN TAKEING HEADS WAS THE CUSTOM, SO MORE WORK WAS PUT INTO MAKEING THEM. A WARRIOR OF THOSE TIMES WANTED THE BEST HE COULD AFFORD AND ALL THE PROPER CHARMS AND TAILSMEN CARVED INTO OR ATTACHED TO HIS SWORD TO PROTECT HIM AND TO GIVE HIM HEADS.

26th March 2007, 04:09 PM	#13
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I am new to this forum, but there are some easy ways to tell that the first handle shown is a reproduction. As people mentioned, the patina is faked, but the carving is also quite crude. The lines are not deeply incised, and there are no pierced areas. The biggest telltale is that the antler chosen for the carving was too thin, which forced the carver to follow the curve of the antler rather than making something more ergonomic. The second handle posted shows much better carving, with several pierced sections, evidence of wear, and the look of a functional handle. All of the curved carvings look continuous and organic without sharp angles from power tools and shoddy workmanship. I would love to hear about the third handle shown. I have mixed feelings on it. How long is the first mandau? Most tourist ones are on the short side. Josh