In very rusty condition ...but is this a Khanda??

Jens Nordlunde · 17th March 2007, 10:35 PM

Katana,
Funny to se a ricasso on the blade, I did not see it before. I think it may be a Rajasthan khanda, and I believe it has quite some age to it, how much, I will let others be the judges of that.

Pukka Bundook · 18th March 2007, 03:47 PM

David,
I think you're right to stop about now with the cleaning.
It looks lovely, and would spoil it to look too 'new'.

I don't know a thing about khandas, but to me it seems seriously old and of great interest.
This I base more on logic than knowlege (!) for the following reasons;

This khanda has a ricasso, as Jens mentions, and no supporting strips down the blade, (long at back, short at front)
Never seems to have had these supports, as on ones I've seen, they are joined at the top, and are fixed to the hilt.

Because of this lack, it would appear to have been made before it was quite decided what a khanda should look like, Which automatically sets it as very early.
(Either that, or very late, and from the looks I think we can rule that out!)

Also, the rusted appearance looked nearly as bad as on my old English Back-sword when I got it. (1630's)
I'm not saying it Is that old, I don't know.
All I know is, it has something that makes it stand out, to me at least, as being very old and interesting!

I do hope someone with more information can tie it down a bit closer.
BTW, How does it feel in the hand?

Richard.

Jim McDougall · 18th March 2007, 05:06 PM

I have been watching this with great interest, and completely agree with Richard, that further removal of patination should stop here. Honestly I prefer the dark patination personally, as that ,in my imaginings holds history itself.

In any case, I think Jens is entirely correct, that this is most probably from Rajasthan regions, and I believe a sword from early to mid 18th century with some very interesting aspects that I will explain further.

The most fascinating thing about this weapon is that it appears to be a hybrid form, as certain elements such as the distinctive spatulate blade tip and the bud on the pommel of the hilt suggest this is the elusive South Indian sword known as 'pattisa'. This is discussed in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour, New Delhi, 1980, p.65) and the author notes that Rawson has grouped the pattisa and khanda into the same category ("The Indian Sword"). The key differences are that pattisa typically do not have the knuckleguard, as seen on this early form of Hindu basket hilt, and as noted, the pommel has the bud, and then there is the spatulate blade.
With the full hilt favored by Rajputs on thier khandas, and the blade of spatulate form as well as the distinctive bud pommel, this may be as indicated, a very early hybrid weapon.Of further interest is that this may well have been furbished by one of the nomadic Gandi Lohar armourers that were so favored by the Rajputs ("By My Sword and Shield" , E.Jaiwent Paul, New Delhi, 1995, p.54-55).

I would consider this sword best classified as a patissa with khanda form basket hilt, probably Rajput, early to mid 18th c.

It is interesting, as Jens notes, that there is a ricasso on this blade, which seems entirely unnecessary on a basket hilt sword, lending certain credence to the likelihood of its purpose to act more as a choil in sharpening than to provide a finger support position. Discussions on that topic have remained at impasse with no conclusions, thus we must remain satisfied that perhaps there were multiple purposes.

On a different track concerning these interesting spatulate blades, consider the much wider influence this blade form may have had on the weapons in other cultural spheres, such as Africa. Look at the Maasai 'seme' and the shape of the blade, seen on a recently run thread. While these typically have the rhomboid cross section, the overall blade profile is compellingly similar.
Just a thought

All the best,
Jim

katana · 18th March 2007, 10:53 PM

Hi Jens,
thanks again for your input...

..the ricasso was a mystery to me as well, unless this was the way the sword was held when 'two handed'.....which does not seem logical ...having a totally unprotected hand would not seem sensible. I did consider the possibillity that this could have an 'execution' function....but soon dismissed it. The spine has a number of nicks in it (all very old...hidden behind the rust) which suggests this sword has been used defensively.

Hi Richard,
my main concern was to leave some of the sword's age by not removing all its 'history'. My compromise was to get one side of the blade in a condition that would show any pattern (wootz) clearly, onced etched. The other side is more pitted and 'displays' its 'antiquity' better.
The blade although slightly thinner than the average sword blade, is flexible but strong. The hilt is 'tight' (as in Tulwar) , or very tight ...bearing in mind the original padding would 'pack it out' a little. In the hand the sword is fast and very very slightly 'top' heavy .....but feel that is due to length.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your informative post, and you have given me more leads to research .....which I appreciate

Very pleased indeed, to have acquired a sword with , potentially, a very colourful past. A sword I will truly treasure

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2007, 01:38 AM

It should be noted as well that the 'pattisa' blades were noted as being quite flexible, and of course the widened tip added weight and force to the slashing cuts. It is interesting that the flexible blades used in such slashing cuts also gained favor in Arabia, in particular Oman, where the kattara blades are often seen almost undulating in swordplay. As I have mentioned, the pattisa form blade may well have diffused into Africa via Arab trade on the Malabar Coast and into Zanzibar, an Omani Sultanate, from there via trade into Kenya.

Amazing how weapons can diffuse across continents isn't it!!! But this is what our studies are about

All the best,
Jim

katana · 26th March 2007, 05:57 PM

Tried to etch with ferric chloride......but could not produce a pattern

After posting this thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4306

I then used vinegar at room temperature to slow the etching process.....but still no pattern.....so its not wootz

But, previously 'clean, smooth, bright' areas of the blade developed tiny, dark 'pinhole' pitting which seem to be 'grouped' together in random lines. It suggests that the blade is composed of 'different' steels, but I cannot see evidence of pattern welding. The earlier corrosion seemed to show a 'pattern' (pictures earlier in thread, 2nd March)

Checking to find how the corrosion rates vary for iron and steel I find this web page which suggests that carbon steel corrodes quicker than iron.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:1...nk&cd=24&gl=uk

So the question is ....is the blade composed of areas of different steels or are there impurities which are easily corroded by acid.

The blade seems well made, strong, flexible and is easily sharpened (and retains the edge well)

katana · 26th March 2007, 06:44 PM

Some pictures which may help......I have edited these with a higher than normal 'contrast' to make them clearer.

26th March 2007, 06:44 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Some pictures which may help......I have edited these with a higher than normal 'contrast' to make them clearer. Attached Images

17th March 2007, 10:35 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Katana, Funny to se a ricasso on the blade, I did not see it before. I think it may be a Rajasthan khanda, and I believe it has quite some age to it, how much, I will let others be the judges of that.

18th March 2007, 03:47 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	David, I think you're right to stop about now with the cleaning. It looks lovely, and would spoil it to look too 'new'. I don't know a thing about khandas, but to me it seems seriously old and of great interest. This I base more on logic than knowlege (!) for the following reasons; This khanda has a ricasso, as Jens mentions, and no supporting strips down the blade, (long at back, short at front) Never seems to have had these supports, as on ones I've seen, they are joined at the top, and are fixed to the hilt. Because of this lack, it would appear to have been made before it was quite decided what a khanda should look like, Which automatically sets it as very early. (Either that, or very late, and from the looks I think we can rule that out!) Also, the rusted appearance looked nearly as bad as on my old English Back-sword when I got it. (1630's) I'm not saying it Is that old, I don't know. All I know is, it has something that makes it stand out, to me at least, as being very old and interesting! I do hope someone with more information can tie it down a bit closer. BTW, How does it feel in the hand? Richard.

18th March 2007, 05:06 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	I have been watching this with great interest, and completely agree with Richard, that further removal of patination should stop here. Honestly I prefer the dark patination personally, as that ,in my imaginings holds history itself. In any case, I think Jens is entirely correct, that this is most probably from Rajasthan regions, and I believe a sword from early to mid 18th century with some very interesting aspects that I will explain further. The most fascinating thing about this weapon is that it appears to be a hybrid form, as certain elements such as the distinctive spatulate blade tip and the bud on the pommel of the hilt suggest this is the elusive South Indian sword known as 'pattisa'. This is discussed in Pant ("Indian Arms & Armour, New Delhi, 1980, p.65) and the author notes that Rawson has grouped the pattisa and khanda into the same category ("The Indian Sword"). The key differences are that pattisa typically do not have the knuckleguard, as seen on this early form of Hindu basket hilt, and as noted, the pommel has the bud, and then there is the spatulate blade. With the full hilt favored by Rajputs on thier khandas, and the blade of spatulate form as well as the distinctive bud pommel, this may be as indicated, a very early hybrid weapon.Of further interest is that this may well have been furbished by one of the nomadic Gandi Lohar armourers that were so favored by the Rajputs ("By My Sword and Shield" , E.Jaiwent Paul, New Delhi, 1995, p.54-55). I would consider this sword best classified as a patissa with khanda form basket hilt, probably Rajput, early to mid 18th c. It is interesting, as Jens notes, that there is a ricasso on this blade, which seems entirely unnecessary on a basket hilt sword, lending certain credence to the likelihood of its purpose to act more as a choil in sharpening than to provide a finger support position. Discussions on that topic have remained at impasse with no conclusions, thus we must remain satisfied that perhaps there were multiple purposes. On a different track concerning these interesting spatulate blades, consider the much wider influence this blade form may have had on the weapons in other cultural spheres, such as Africa. Look at the Maasai 'seme' and the shape of the blade, seen on a recently run thread. While these typically have the rhomboid cross section, the overall blade profile is compellingly similar. Just a thought All the best, Jim

18th March 2007, 10:53 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jens, thanks again for your input... ..the ricasso was a mystery to me as well, unless this was the way the sword was held when 'two handed'.....which does not seem logical ...having a totally unprotected hand would not seem sensible. I did consider the possibillity that this could have an 'execution' function....but soon dismissed it. The spine has a number of nicks in it (all very old...hidden behind the rust) which suggests this sword has been used defensively. Hi Richard, my main concern was to leave some of the sword's age by not removing all its 'history'. My compromise was to get one side of the blade in a condition that would show any pattern (wootz) clearly, onced etched. The other side is more pitted and 'displays' its 'antiquity' better. The blade although slightly thinner than the average sword blade, is flexible but strong. The hilt is 'tight' (as in Tulwar) , or very tight ...bearing in mind the original padding would 'pack it out' a little. In the hand the sword is fast and very very slightly 'top' heavy .....but feel that is due to length. Hi Jim, Thanks for your informative post, and you have given me more leads to research .....which I appreciate Very pleased indeed, to have acquired a sword with , potentially, a very colourful past. A sword I will truly treasure

19th March 2007, 01:38 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	It should be noted as well that the 'pattisa' blades were noted as being quite flexible, and of course the widened tip added weight and force to the slashing cuts. It is interesting that the flexible blades used in such slashing cuts also gained favor in Arabia, in particular Oman, where the kattara blades are often seen almost undulating in swordplay. As I have mentioned, the pattisa form blade may well have diffused into Africa via Arab trade on the Malabar Coast and into Zanzibar, an Omani Sultanate, from there via trade into Kenya. Amazing how weapons can diffuse across continents isn't it!!! But this is what our studies are about All the best, Jim

26th March 2007, 05:57 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Tried to etch with ferric chloride......but could not produce a pattern After posting this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4306 I then used vinegar at room temperature to slow the etching process.....but still no pattern.....so its not wootz But, previously 'clean, smooth, bright' areas of the blade developed tiny, dark 'pinhole' pitting which seem to be 'grouped' together in random lines. It suggests that the blade is composed of 'different' steels, but I cannot see evidence of pattern welding. The earlier corrosion seemed to show a 'pattern' (pictures earlier in thread, 2nd March) Checking to find how the corrosion rates vary for iron and steel I find this web page which suggests that carbon steel corrodes quicker than iron. http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:1...nk&cd=24&gl=uk So the question is ....is the blade composed of areas of different steels or are there impurities which are easily corroded by acid. The blade seems well made, strong, flexible and is easily sharpened (and retains the edge well)