Tibet or Nepal ?

Bill M · 10th March 2007, 01:40 PM

Here is a Bhutanese dagger I acquired from Lionsgate about 5 years ago when I first started collecting.

Michel · 10th March 2007, 02:19 PM

Hi Bill,
thank you for the 2 daggers presented.
The Nepalese one is of a higher quality than mine but clearly close, in particular the blade.
The Bhutanes one is distinctly a few classes higher in all its aspects:blade, scabbard with shark skin and repousse work.
Really thank you for showing us these weapons.
Do you have a name for these daggers ?
Regards
Michel

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2007, 04:17 PM

Hi Michel,
There has been considerable debate about edged weapons from Bhutan and Tibet, as the diffusion of preferred styles has of course ignored such geographic boundaries. However, it does seem that the knoblike pommel feature is most typically associated with Bhutan. This example does seem reasonably recent, as it is embossed while earlier edged weapons from these regions are typically pierced fretwork.
The geopolitical events throughout these regions over the last half century have obviously heightened the diffusion of these weapons, and the cottage industry of 'reproduced' weapons in China has of course further clouded the issue. Nepal has become a highly travelled region for tourists in this same period and with that being the case provides a ready market for authentic weapons from these regions, as well as pervaded with Chinese made products.

As for the term for these interesting daggers, I am not a linguist of course

but I discovered the following:
"...every Bhutanese male regularly carries a knife, called a 'dossum', which he uses constantly in his daily chores".
- Bert Kerr Todd, in "Bhutan, the Land of the Thunder Dragon"
"National Geographic Magazine", December, 1952

I personally have always entertained the idea that these knob shaped swords and edged weapons, as well as the general features of the scabbards etc. of both Tibetan and Bhutanese weapons may reflect those of early Greek swords such as the phasganon and phasgana. While certainly geographically remote in relation to many regions known to have been visited or occupied by the early Greeks, it does seem that iconographically influenced weapons are prevalent over much of the Indian subcontinent and such diffusion does seem somewhat plausible. It would be interesting to hear other observations on this idea.

All the best,
Jim

spiral · 11th March 2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As for the term for these interesting daggers, I am not a linguist of course

but I discovered the following:
"...every Bhutanese male regularly carries a knife, called a 'dossum', which he uses constantly in his daily chores".
- Bert Kerr Todd, in "Bhutan, the Land of the Thunder Dragon"
"National Geographic Magazine", December, 1952

Jim

What a lovely name! Dossum! I realy like that!

As others say Nepal is full of Tibetan, Nepalese, Butanese,Indian & Chinese artifacts & weapons, deciding what was made by who & where can be rather difficult to work out.

The chinese even make fake Nepali tourist kukri with fake coins on nowadays! & probably millions of Tibetans live in Nepal & many still make such things.

The Victorean ones stand out, but anything else I realy havent a clue.

I concur with the mainstream opinion though, it looks recent to me.

Spiral

Bill M · 11th March 2007, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Hi Bill,
thank you for the 2 daggers presented.
The Nepalese one is of a higher quality than mine but clearly close, in particular the blade.
The Bhutanes one is distinctly a few classes higher in all its aspects:blade, scabbard with shark skin and repousse work.
Really thank you for showing us these weapons.
Do you have a name for these daggers ?
Regards
Michel

Sure, I call them Dossum and Possum

Michel · 12th March 2007, 06:26 PM

You look great Bill,
But your dossum looks nicer than your possum !

Thanks to Jim for the name dossum.
Jim you have all my admiration to be able to find in a National Geographic Magazine of 1952, the name of these daggers.
To search in the National Geographic, you had to know you had seen something of the type and remember it.

Thanks
Michel

~Alaung_Hpaya~ · 12th March 2007, 06:49 PM

The blade has similar proportions to that used by Burmese Kings as part of their regalia . I don't think I've seen any photos of one though .

Jim McDougall · 12th March 2007, 11:41 PM

Thanks very much for the kind words Michel

Theres no telling what can be found in these dusty archives, and I can only hope there wont be a cave in!! Anyway, glad I could be of help.

Now Bill......what the heck are you doin' in the woods wearing a bathrobe and a possum???!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Battara · 13th March 2007, 01:47 AM

Bill....you kill me.

Bill M · 13th March 2007, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Now Bill......what the heck are you doin' in the woods wearing a bathrobe and a possum???!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Umm, hunting with my dossum?

I mean possum.

. been a long day, better get back to Ethnographic studies.

10th March 2007, 01:40 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Here is a Bhutanese dagger I acquired from Lionsgate about 5 years ago when I first started collecting. Attached Images

10th March 2007, 02:19 PM	#2
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Hi Bill, thank you for the 2 daggers presented. The Nepalese one is of a higher quality than mine but clearly close, in particular the blade. The Bhutanes one is distinctly a few classes higher in all its aspects:blade, scabbard with shark skin and repousse work. Really thank you for showing us these weapons. Do you have a name for these daggers ? Regards Michel

10th March 2007, 04:17 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Michel, There has been considerable debate about edged weapons from Bhutan and Tibet, as the diffusion of preferred styles has of course ignored such geographic boundaries. However, it does seem that the knoblike pommel feature is most typically associated with Bhutan. This example does seem reasonably recent, as it is embossed while earlier edged weapons from these regions are typically pierced fretwork. The geopolitical events throughout these regions over the last half century have obviously heightened the diffusion of these weapons, and the cottage industry of 'reproduced' weapons in China has of course further clouded the issue. Nepal has become a highly travelled region for tourists in this same period and with that being the case provides a ready market for authentic weapons from these regions, as well as pervaded with Chinese made products. As for the term for these interesting daggers, I am not a linguist of course but I discovered the following: "...every Bhutanese male regularly carries a knife, called a 'dossum', which he uses constantly in his daily chores". - Bert Kerr Todd, in "Bhutan, the Land of the Thunder Dragon" "National Geographic Magazine", December, 1952 I personally have always entertained the idea that these knob shaped swords and edged weapons, as well as the general features of the scabbards etc. of both Tibetan and Bhutanese weapons may reflect those of early Greek swords such as the phasganon and phasgana. While certainly geographically remote in relation to many regions known to have been visited or occupied by the early Greeks, it does seem that iconographically influenced weapons are prevalent over much of the Indian subcontinent and such diffusion does seem somewhat plausible. It would be interesting to hear other observations on this idea. All the best, Jim

12th March 2007, 06:26 PM	#6
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	You look great Bill, But your dossum looks nicer than your possum ! Thanks to Jim for the name dossum. Jim you have all my admiration to be able to find in a National Geographic Magazine of 1952, the name of these daggers. To search in the National Geographic, you had to know you had seen something of the type and remember it. Thanks Michel

12th March 2007, 06:49 PM	#7
~Alaung_Hpaya~ Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 65	The blade has similar proportions to that used by Burmese Kings as part of their regalia . I don't think I've seen any photos of one though .

12th March 2007, 11:41 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Thanks very much for the kind words Michel Theres no telling what can be found in these dusty archives, and I can only hope there wont be a cave in!! Anyway, glad I could be of help. Now Bill......what the heck are you doin' in the woods wearing a bathrobe and a possum???!!!! All the best, Jim

13th March 2007, 01:47 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	Bill....you kill me.