new keris for comment

Alam Shah · 6th March 2007, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

... people siad jalak ngore is a rare tangguh, but my first collection come with 3 jalak ngore kerises with same pamor ( wos wutah and kulit semangka) . I've been trying to find good sample of keris with gold ornament/kinatah, but mostly I only find those in books ( ensiklopedia keris ) . I'll keep looking, any body have a kinatah keris?? any body?
Can we make our own kinatah keris?

I'm waiting for your opinion guys.....

Like David said, jalak ngore is a name of a dapur. If you're looking for real pieces with gold kinatah, do note that the prices could go up to the price of a car or house.

Keris with kinatah are conferred similar to medals of honour in today's standards. It's a form of reward, for their warriors, in the olden days.

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2007, 05:45 AM

Ferry, do you think you might be able to give us a photo of the top of the gonjo, especially the sirah cecak? Thanks.

ferrylaki · 6th March 2007, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ferry, do you think you might be able to give us a photo of the top of the gonjo, especially the sirah cecak? Thanks.

good day Alan,
I'll try to post pic of ganja tomorrow. do you mean I should take the picture from the bottom of ganja, or the upper part of the ganja?

there is a particular pattern of pamor on the ganja, or maybe you like to see the simetry of the ganja?

do this picture help your question?

Alam Shah · 6th March 2007, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

...a photo of the top of the gonjo, especially the sirah cecak?

Ferrylaki,
Have a look at the diagram from Alan's site. There is one which is labelled sirah cecak. From that angle, top of the blade, (best with the hilt removed).

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

A. G. Maisey · 6th March 2007, 09:53 PM

G'day Ferry,

as Shahrial explained, looking down onto the top of the gonjo.

Ferry, I do not know who told you that the pamor on one side of the blade was ngulit semangka, and on the other wos wutah, but I don't think I can agree with that.

These two pamors are essentially the same:- they are made in the same way, and it is only a matter of degree as to whether we call it ngulit semangka or wos wutah. It is possible that that even in the same billet that was used for the pamor, the bands of contrasting material could be a bit wider , or a bit narrower at opposing ends of the billet, but when I look at your keris, I can see no material difference in the pamor on either side of the blade. I think I'd be inclined to designate this pamor as just wos wutuh.

Similarly, I am inclined to disagree with the HB classification.

I refuse to get involved a "tangguh battle", or even much discussion of classification, based on photos, no matter how good those photos are (and they are definitely good), but the features I can see in this blade certainly do not say "HB" to me, they something more like "Kajoran".

Additionally, proportion seems wrong for this type of blade; it would not surprise me if at some time in the past it had been shortened.

Regarding the matter of staining your blades, speak to me in Palur.

David · 6th March 2007, 10:35 PM

I also noticed the shortened proportion in these photgraphs, but it is possible that this might be a trick of photographic perspective since it seems that you may not be directly over the top of this blade when shooting down on it. A picture is worth a thousand words, but sometimes they can be deceptive.

Alan, could you explain "Kajoran" a bit more as it is not a tangguh designation i am familar with.

A. G. Maisey · 7th March 2007, 12:50 AM

Yeah, could easy be David, but Ferry told us that the keris is 38cm overall, take away the handle and mendak and you're looking at about 11.5 inches, which is fairly short---still within the bounds of a normal keris, but with a wide sorsoran like that, and a nice substantial blade, to my eye, the proportion is all wrong.

The Lords of Kajoran were a powerful family in Central Jawa between the time of the end of Sultan Agung's rule, and the establishment of Kartosuro. Its just a tag that is put on blades with that generally Mataramish look, but with the wide, heavy ada-ada ---like a buffalo's back--- and that are attributed to that period.

Don't get too tied up in tangguh. Give 6 ahli keris a blade to classify and you'll likely get a dozen opinions UNLESS that blade is a top quality Kraton blade, when you will get just one opinion.

Why? Because everybody wants to hang a tangguh on everything, and the system was not designed to do this.

ferrylaki · 7th March 2007, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Ferrylaki,
Have a look at the diagram from Alan's site. There is one which is labelled sirah cecak. From that angle, top of the blade, (best with the hilt removed).

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

I can't open the web you mentioned,
I try to get a shot under minimal lighting this morning, but the result a little bit disappointing. get a look....

A. G. Maisey · 7th March 2007, 03:46 AM

Not quite what we need Ferry.The sirah cecak helps, and I'm guessing that there is a bit of width to the buntut urang, but here is an illustration that shows what we need.

In any case, I can see enough to tell me what I wanted to know. Thanks.

ferrylaki · 7th March 2007, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Not quite what we need Ferry.The sirah cecak helps, and I'm guessing that there is a bit of width to the buntut urang, but here is an illustration that shows what we need.

In any case, I can see enough to tell me what I wanted to know. Thanks.

sorry about the pictures,
I was in hurry catching the morning train.
I looked at the diagram and find the keris has exactly the same diagram.
there is a small crack/split on the tip of buntut urang.

my prefious jalak ngore has better buntut urang ( not crack)but the grenengan seem to be less better.
"In any case, I can see enough to tell me what I wanted to know"
what do you mean?

best regards,
ferry

ferrylaki · 7th March 2007, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

I can't open the web you mentioned,
I try to get a shot under minimal lighting this morning, but the result a little bit disappointing. get a look....

more pics. this is a different keris. dapur jalak ngore.
lenght : 42 cm AOL from pesi to tip point.
pamor wos wutah.

the different with my new jalak ngore keris is at its ada ada,there seem like a line , like thin fuller ( narrow fuller )
the keris seem bigger and heavier.

7th March 2007, 03:46 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Not quite what we need Ferry.The sirah cecak helps, and I'm guessing that there is a bit of width to the buntut urang, but here is an illustration that shows what we need. In any case, I can see enough to tell me what I wanted to know. Thanks. Attached Images

6th March 2007, 05:45 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Ferry, do you think you might be able to give us a photo of the top of the gonjo, especially the sirah cecak? Thanks.

6th March 2007, 09:53 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	G'day Ferry, as Shahrial explained, looking down onto the top of the gonjo. Ferry, I do not know who told you that the pamor on one side of the blade was ngulit semangka, and on the other wos wutah, but I don't think I can agree with that. These two pamors are essentially the same:- they are made in the same way, and it is only a matter of degree as to whether we call it ngulit semangka or wos wutah. It is possible that that even in the same billet that was used for the pamor, the bands of contrasting material could be a bit wider , or a bit narrower at opposing ends of the billet, but when I look at your keris, I can see no material difference in the pamor on either side of the blade. I think I'd be inclined to designate this pamor as just wos wutuh. Similarly, I am inclined to disagree with the HB classification. I refuse to get involved a "tangguh battle", or even much discussion of classification, based on photos, no matter how good those photos are (and they are definitely good), but the features I can see in this blade certainly do not say "HB" to me, they something more like "Kajoran". Additionally, proportion seems wrong for this type of blade; it would not surprise me if at some time in the past it had been shortened. Regarding the matter of staining your blades, speak to me in Palur.

6th March 2007, 10:35 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I also noticed the shortened proportion in these photgraphs, but it is possible that this might be a trick of photographic perspective since it seems that you may not be directly over the top of this blade when shooting down on it. A picture is worth a thousand words, but sometimes they can be deceptive. Alan, could you explain "Kajoran" a bit more as it is not a tangguh designation i am familar with.

7th March 2007, 12:50 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yeah, could easy be David, but Ferry told us that the keris is 38cm overall, take away the handle and mendak and you're looking at about 11.5 inches, which is fairly short---still within the bounds of a normal keris, but with a wide sorsoran like that, and a nice substantial blade, to my eye, the proportion is all wrong. The Lords of Kajoran were a powerful family in Central Jawa between the time of the end of Sultan Agung's rule, and the establishment of Kartosuro. Its just a tag that is put on blades with that generally Mataramish look, but with the wide, heavy ada-ada ---like a buffalo's back--- and that are attributed to that period. Don't get too tied up in tangguh. Give 6 ahli keris a blade to classify and you'll likely get a dozen opinions UNLESS that blade is a top quality Kraton blade, when you will get just one opinion. Why? Because everybody wants to hang a tangguh on everything, and the system was not designed to do this.