KERIS WITH IVORY HILT

David · 4th March 2007, 04:58 PM

Thanks Shahrial. I was unaware of the dapur Jalak Ngoceh. I would agree that this blade was made in Sumatra. I believed we have already discussed the Javanese court influence on Sumatran blade form before.

Alam Shah · 10th March 2007, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Thanks Shahrial. I was unaware of the dapur Jalak Ngoceh. I would agree that this blade was made in Sumatra. I believed we have already discussed the Javanese court influence on Sumatran blade form before.

Yes, we have.

Carlos,
More details about your piece.

The global shape of the blade is 'ngadhal meteng' (mbangkek), based of blade outline.
The tikel alis is a 'jugag' type, (the deep groove near the base of the blade).
The tip of the blade is a 'ngudhup' point, broad pointed tip.

The dapur leans more towards Jalak Ngoceh, there is no ada-ada (prominent spine) present, (based on available pictures).

Jalak is a songbird, Ngoceh means scattering, therefore Jalak Ngoceh literally means scattering songbird. This is probably based on the greneng area, with a sort of ron da nunut present.
The meaning of Jalak Ngore is, songbird spreading its wings.

See [ keris diagram ] for details.

carlos · 10th March 2007, 08:24 AM

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! I´M VERY HAPPY WITH ALL THE INFORMATION! MY ENGLISH ISN´T GOOD AND IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ME WRITE IN THE FORUM, BUT I ALWAYS TRY WRITE SOMETHING AND PUT MY PIECES IN THE FORUM.
THANKS AGAIN
CARLOS

QUOTE=Alam Shah]Yes, we have.

Carlos,
More details about your piece.

The global shape of the blade is 'ngadhal meteng' (mbangkek), based of blade outline.
The tikel alis is a 'jugag' type, (the deep groove near the base of the blade).
The tip of the blade is a 'ngudhup' point, broad pointed tip.

The dapur leans more towards Jalak Ngoceh, there is no ada-ada (prominent spine) present, (based on available pictures).

Jalak is a songbird, Ngoceh means scattering, therefore Jalak Ngoceh literally means scattering songbird. This is probably based on the greneng area, with a sort of ron da nunut present.
The meaning of Jalak Ngore is, songbird spreading its wings.

See [ keris diagram ] for details.[/QUOTE]

Pangeran Datu · 11th March 2007, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

... Ngoceh means scattering, therefore Jalak Ngoceh literally means scattering songbird. This is probably based on the greneng area, with a sort of ron da nunut present.
The meaning of Jalak Ngore is, songbird spreading its wings.

See [ keris diagram ] for details.

G'day,

Just being pedantic I guess, but in your neck of the woods, the word 'ngoceh' must have a different meaning to that in indo. In indo it comes from the word 'oceh', meaning to gossip/chat. Thus 'Jalak Ngoceh' literally means 'Chattering Starling'.

Cheers.

Alam Shah · 11th March 2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

...Just being pedantic I guess, but in your neck of the woods, the word 'ngoceh' must have a different meaning to that in indo. In indo it comes from the word 'oceh', meaning to gossip/chat. Thus 'Jalak Ngoceh' literally means 'Chattering Starling'...

Maybe you would like to recheck your Kamus Bahasa Indonesia (dictionary) or other references. I would like to know where you based your translation on?

Perhaps an etymologist well-versed in Bahasa Indonesia could assist...

For me, I was basing on Bambang Harsrinuksmo's - Ensiklopedi Keris (Pg:200) and cross-referenced it with Haryono Haryoguritno's - Keris Jawa - antara Mistik dan Nalar (Pg:183). Their exact meaning in Bahasa Indonesia (in these two books) are, "Jalak Ngoceh = burung jalak yang berkicau". "Berkicau" translated to English would be "scattering". Unless both of them and myself are mistaken?

David · 11th March 2007, 04:34 PM

Frankly i am not sure it matters all that much since this dapor bears no actual resemblence to either a "scattering" or a "chattering" starling.

It does seem to me that the names chosen for these dapors is more often somewhat arbritrary.

Pangeran Datu · 11th March 2007, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Maybe you would like to recheck your Kamus Bahasa Indonesia (dictionary) or other references. I would like to know where you based your translation on?

Perhaps an etymologist well-versed in Bahasa Indonesia could assist...

For me, I was basing on Bambang Harsrinuksmo's - Ensiklopedi Keris (Pg:200) and cross-referenced it with Haryono Haryoguritno's - Keris Jawa - antara Mistik dan Nalar (Pg:183). Their exact meaning in Bahasa Indonesia (in these two books) are, "Jalak Ngoceh = burung jalak yang berkicau". "Berkicau" translated to English would be "scattering". Unless both of them and myself are mistaken?

Hi Alam Shah,

Yes, I agree with you: ngoceh = berkicau .... when specifically applied to things like birds. Generically, it is the equivalent of the English 'yakking' or 'chin-wagging'. BTW... berkicau = chirp(ing)
I stand by what I said. As to what I based my statement on: I have studied Bahasa in indo and (pardon me for blowing my own trumpet, but since you did ask) can trade grammar and colloquialism with the best of them. So I rarely need a 'kamus'.
BTW... in my understanding Jalak Ngoceh doesn't have a 'tikel alis'. Maybe you, or someone else, can clarify this.

Best regards.

A. G. Maisey · 11th March 2007, 11:13 PM

Gee whiz Pangeran, I wish I was as clever as you are!

I use a dictionary all the time. I am a native English speaker, virtually all my work involves writing, and I find that I constantly need to refer to one dictionary or another, and then there's my thesaurus. I can't even survive without a dictionary in the language I've been using for the last 60 odd years.

Now, when I move into Indonesian and Javanese---goodness me! I've got so many dictionaries I just don't know where to start.I've never actually studied Indonesian, I've just learnt to use it. Pretty much the same as I learnt to use English.

Yeah, I can carry on a conversation in Indonesian, and I must admit that my Indonesian is pretty much as she is spoke by ordinary people in Solo. No problem with that. I can rip off a letter that will be easily understood. I use a mixture of Indonesian, Javanese and English every single day in conversation within my own family.
But when it comes to writing a formal letter to a government official, I check every second word with a dictionary.

Now lets just have a look at this word "ngoceh".

In Javanese it can actually come from two different words:- koceh, which means to splash about in water, or to splash money around, and can be extended into other meanings as well such as to smear. Colloquially it can be used to refer to babbling speech , where the speech is likened to somebody splashing words around without meaning, as one would splash water.

However, if "ngoceh" is considered to come from "oceh", it has a somewhat different meaning.Applied to birds it means to twitter or chirp, but applied to a person it means to talk too much.

Slight differences, but significant differences:- applied to a person, it can mean to talk nonsense, or it can mean to talk too much, and of course, the meaning depends on the specific context.

However,applied to a bird, it means to twitter, chirp, possibly even to warble , and a bird that talks can be referred to as an "oceh-ocehan".

Of course, in Indonesian, the words "oceh", and "koceh" have virtually the same meaning, the subtle differences that apply when the words are used in Javanese have disappeared when those words have come into Indonesian.In Indonesian, the idea of "empty chatter" applies to both words. One would not use "ngoceh" to refer to a Saturday afternoon yarn with a mate---not unless one wished to denigrate the content of the conversation.

When we look at keris terminology in Jawa, we need to look at the terms and words used from the Javanese perspective, not from the Indonesian language perspective. Thus, "Jalak Ngoceh" must be read as Javanese, not Indonesian.

In Javanese this term "Jalak Ngoceh" can only be understood as "chirping/twittering/warbling jalak". Or even "chattering", but the English word "chattering" is a word better applied to a human context, rather than a bird context, especially when we have words such as "chirping", and "twittering" available.

Regarding dapur names, I guess you need a rather poetic nature, and an other wordly imagination to relate many dapur names to the physical objects to which they refer. The actual features of any dapur can be interpreted differently according to the pakem that is being followed. Personally, I try to avoid as much as possible the use of dapur names, and prefer to describe a blade in terms of the features present.

Alam Shah · 11th March 2007, 11:42 PM

I stand corrected.

Thank you Pangeran Datu and Alan.

I guess, I'm like a "Jalak Ngoceh" myself (talk to much).

Pangeran Datu · 12th March 2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gee whiz Pangeran, I wish I was as clever as you are!...

G’day Alan,
ROTFLPIMP ... Now I KNOW you’re having a lend of me!

Unfortunately, I can never lay claim to being anywhere near clever (my genes don’t have ‘clever’ on their database

).
However, I will admit to being fortunate enough to be a ‘survivor’. Any experience/knowledge/skills I may have was born of necessity, not by design.

Back to the word ‘ngoceh’: I am a lazy sort of bloke. I like to use what’s on hand first before scurrying off to look for additional tools.
Had I NOT been satisfied by the the result of my working knowledge, then, no doubt, I WOULD have been forced to study texts/dictionaries to find the origin/meaning of the word in Kawi/Sanskrit. Thankfully, that need didn’t arise in this case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

I stand corrected. Thank you Pangeran Datu and Alan.
I guess, I'm like a "Jalak Ngoceh" myself (talk to much). ...

Hi Shahrial,
I wouldn’t be too concerned about it

.
You’re doing a great job in this forum: I consider you a major and consistent contributor.
(BTW … did I spell your name correctly? I wondered because I have some friends with a similar name, but they spell theirs with a ‘z’: Shahrizal).

I think it’s good that sometimes we are able to have a bit of a giggle with each other, even have a slight ‘dig’ at each other, without losing one’s sense of humour

.
One shouldn’t be afraid to get egg on one’s face either, as long as there’s benefit. Goodness knows how many eggs have landed on my face!

Hi Carlos,
Please accept my apologies for this digression.

Cheers!

10th March 2007, 08:24 AM	#3
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 748	THANKS!! THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! I´M VERY HAPPY WITH ALL THE INFORMATION! MY ENGLISH ISN´T GOOD AND IS VERY DIFFICULT TO ME WRITE IN THE FORUM, BUT I ALWAYS TRY WRITE SOMETHING AND PUT MY PIECES IN THE FORUM. THANKS AGAIN CARLOS QUOTE=Alam Shah]Yes, we have. Carlos, More details about your piece. The global shape of the blade is 'ngadhal meteng' (mbangkek), based of blade outline. The tikel alis is a 'jugag' type, (the deep groove near the base of the blade). The tip of the blade is a 'ngudhup' point, broad pointed tip. The dapur leans more towards Jalak Ngoceh, there is no ada-ada (prominent spine) present, (based on available pictures). Jalak is a songbird, Ngoceh means scattering, therefore Jalak Ngoceh literally means scattering songbird. This is probably based on the greneng area, with a sort of ron da nunut present. The meaning of Jalak Ngore is, songbird spreading its wings. See [ keris diagram ] for details.[/QUOTE]

11th March 2007, 11:42 PM	#9
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Correction... I stand corrected. Thank you Pangeran Datu and Alan. I guess, I'm like a "Jalak Ngoceh" myself (talk to much).

4th March 2007, 04:58 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Thanks Shahrial. I was unaware of the dapur Jalak Ngoceh. I would agree that this blade was made in Sumatra. I believed we have already discussed the Javanese court influence on Sumatran blade form before.

11th March 2007, 04:34 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Frankly i am not sure it matters all that much since this dapor bears no actual resemblence to either a "scattering" or a "chattering" starling. It does seem to me that the names chosen for these dapors is more often somewhat arbritrary.

11th March 2007, 11:13 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Gee whiz Pangeran, I wish I was as clever as you are! I use a dictionary all the time. I am a native English speaker, virtually all my work involves writing, and I find that I constantly need to refer to one dictionary or another, and then there's my thesaurus. I can't even survive without a dictionary in the language I've been using for the last 60 odd years. Now, when I move into Indonesian and Javanese---goodness me! I've got so many dictionaries I just don't know where to start.I've never actually studied Indonesian, I've just learnt to use it. Pretty much the same as I learnt to use English. Yeah, I can carry on a conversation in Indonesian, and I must admit that my Indonesian is pretty much as she is spoke by ordinary people in Solo. No problem with that. I can rip off a letter that will be easily understood. I use a mixture of Indonesian, Javanese and English every single day in conversation within my own family. But when it comes to writing a formal letter to a government official, I check every second word with a dictionary. Now lets just have a look at this word "ngoceh". In Javanese it can actually come from two different words:- koceh, which means to splash about in water, or to splash money around, and can be extended into other meanings as well such as to smear. Colloquially it can be used to refer to babbling speech , where the speech is likened to somebody splashing words around without meaning, as one would splash water. However, if "ngoceh" is considered to come from "oceh", it has a somewhat different meaning.Applied to birds it means to twitter or chirp, but applied to a person it means to talk too much. Slight differences, but significant differences:- applied to a person, it can mean to talk nonsense, or it can mean to talk too much, and of course, the meaning depends on the specific context. However,applied to a bird, it means to twitter, chirp, possibly even to warble , and a bird that talks can be referred to as an "oceh-ocehan". Of course, in Indonesian, the words "oceh", and "koceh" have virtually the same meaning, the subtle differences that apply when the words are used in Javanese have disappeared when those words have come into Indonesian.In Indonesian, the idea of "empty chatter" applies to both words. One would not use "ngoceh" to refer to a Saturday afternoon yarn with a mate---not unless one wished to denigrate the content of the conversation. When we look at keris terminology in Jawa, we need to look at the terms and words used from the Javanese perspective, not from the Indonesian language perspective. Thus, "Jalak Ngoceh" must be read as Javanese, not Indonesian. In Javanese this term "Jalak Ngoceh" can only be understood as "chirping/twittering/warbling jalak". Or even "chattering", but the English word "chattering" is a word better applied to a human context, rather than a bird context, especially when we have words such as "chirping", and "twittering" available. Regarding dapur names, I guess you need a rather poetic nature, and an other wordly imagination to relate many dapur names to the physical objects to which they refer. The actual features of any dapur can be interpreted differently according to the pakem that is being followed. Personally, I try to avoid as much as possible the use of dapur names, and prefer to describe a blade in terms of the features present.