Very Interesting Indian sword for discussion

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2005, 01:33 PM

Hi Rick,
Maybe it is stylized flowers shown on your hilt, but I am not sure.
I would like to show you some examples, but I think I better do this in another thread, otherwise your thread will end up in a mess, and that would be a pity.
Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2005, 04:35 PM

Maratha. 18th to 19th Century.
From Holstein: Contribution a L’etude des Armes Orientales. Vol. II, Pl. VII, No 244.

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2005, 01:10 AM

Hi Brian,
Extremely well said, and we are in complete agreement on these points. I always find it difficult when a published work does reveal flaws or errors as I have spoken out often on the importance of respecting an author's work.
As I had earlier noted, I agree that it is equally important for those who pursue research on the same subject matter to define key errors and offer revised data. This must be done with caution, so as not to demean the author himself.
I think that you always employ such respectful candor in regard to such work , and your observations are most important, considering the wealth of knowledge you have garnered in the research you have done on Indian weapons.

I also agree with you on the 'feel' of this weapon, which as you note seems to suggest southern India, and agree that it is at this point mostly the gestalt of the weapon rather than any particular evidence which brings this perception. After the inclination toward that attribution, I think the weapon Jens illustrated offers some support toward our theory, with a Maratha weapon with similar fleuret form quillon terminals. I had been considering the collateral Tipu-esque characteristics and the fact that Hyder and Tipu were both highly influenced by the French militarily as well. Again, all of this is ,as you say, speculation with a degree of plausibility, and not necessarily evidence.

I think Radu is extremely observant in his suggestion on possible Gujerat provenance, and think it is important to bring all theories and possibilities to the table for discussion, as we have here. Now to bring in any supporting evidence that may provide support for that suggestion, as well as to add to any for the southern India provenance. Actually all of this may be a formidable task, as trade and Mughal suzerainty consistantly connected regions from the northwest, to Hyderabad and Mysore in central southern India. Persian influence prevailed throughout the Mughal empire, therefore the observation concerning such influence in this sword is also well placed.

All the best,
Jim

B.I · 24th February 2005, 07:45 AM

hi jim,
i agree, that its difficult to criticise authors that you may not completely agree with, but still hold in great esteem for the efforts and work they provided. i suppose if you take any book and just pull out the raw facts, without the opinions and lifted data, then you wouldnt be left with much (a lot of pictures). i respect all authours for having the guts, and the time and inclination to publish. i respect tirris efforts as, whether you agree or disagree with him, its still a useful book.
all we can do is note references and influences, as all else is speculation. whether we agree on other opinions or not, i suppose we have to respect them as they have founding as much as your own (as long as it clearly stated to be speculation

).
my feeling has always been south and the floral quillions in jens' image shows this influence. the mysore pieces from tipu/hyder ali also show this, and the pieces in the clive collection back this up. however, the floral quillion was also prevelant on mughal miniatures from the north and so this feeling lends towards assumption. when hard data lacks, all you have to go by is your own feeling and experiences, but this doesnt lend to a forum discussion. if some forum members start to discuss their true inner feelings, i feel psychiatrists and agony aunts would need to moderate instead and poor andrew would need a comfortable sofa and some ink blot images to run this forum

Andrew · 25th February 2005, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

if some forum members start to discuss their true inner feelings, i feel psychiatrists and agony aunts would need to moderate instead and poor andrew would need a comfortable sofa and some ink blot images to run this forum

So do you want to tell me about your parents now or later, Brian?

Andrew · 25th February 2005, 05:26 AM

I've defended works like Stone's in the past, and will continue to do so. Every published work contributes to our collective knowlege in some way, even with mistakes.

tom hyle · 25th February 2005, 01:07 PM

True, and people were only working with what they had available. It's frustrating to think they were closer to the source in time, but modern Western researchers have probably become somewhat more culturally open, and that helps. R.E. Howard, who sometimes seems silly by today's standards, was pretty well state of the art on anthropology and history and not bad on archaeology, for his time. Also, despite common criticism to the contrary, and his acceptance of the racial/tribal realities that dominated his time and all of human history (our time too, though people are in denial), he took occasions to get in little digs against divisionism (things like "Do you mean to tell me you're going to take the side of a Mohammedan against a man of your own race?!" "Yes, that's what I mean....")....oh, and in the stories he actually wrote, Conan used his brain (the challenge of the situation was often that his muscle an physical ability weren't enough alone), and his characters did exhibit considerable mental variety, which is why the converted stories throw the C-man's personality in annoyingly uncharacteristic directions...........off topic? Where's my dang map?

22nd February 2005, 04:35 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Maratha. 18th to 19th Century. From Holstein: Contribution a L’etude des Armes Orientales. Vol. II, Pl. VII, No 244. Attached Images

22nd February 2005, 01:33 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, Maybe it is stylized flowers shown on your hilt, but I am not sure. I would like to show you some examples, but I think I better do this in another thread, otherwise your thread will end up in a mess, and that would be a pity. Jens

24th February 2005, 01:10 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,362	Hi Brian, Extremely well said, and we are in complete agreement on these points. I always find it difficult when a published work does reveal flaws or errors as I have spoken out often on the importance of respecting an author's work. As I had earlier noted, I agree that it is equally important for those who pursue research on the same subject matter to define key errors and offer revised data. This must be done with caution, so as not to demean the author himself. I think that you always employ such respectful candor in regard to such work , and your observations are most important, considering the wealth of knowledge you have garnered in the research you have done on Indian weapons. I also agree with you on the 'feel' of this weapon, which as you note seems to suggest southern India, and agree that it is at this point mostly the gestalt of the weapon rather than any particular evidence which brings this perception. After the inclination toward that attribution, I think the weapon Jens illustrated offers some support toward our theory, with a Maratha weapon with similar fleuret form quillon terminals. I had been considering the collateral Tipu-esque characteristics and the fact that Hyder and Tipu were both highly influenced by the French militarily as well. Again, all of this is ,as you say, speculation with a degree of plausibility, and not necessarily evidence. I think Radu is extremely observant in his suggestion on possible Gujerat provenance, and think it is important to bring all theories and possibilities to the table for discussion, as we have here. Now to bring in any supporting evidence that may provide support for that suggestion, as well as to add to any for the southern India provenance. Actually all of this may be a formidable task, as trade and Mughal suzerainty consistantly connected regions from the northwest, to Hyderabad and Mysore in central southern India. Persian influence prevailed throughout the Mughal empire, therefore the observation concerning such influence in this sword is also well placed. All the best, Jim

24th February 2005, 07:45 AM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim, i agree, that its difficult to criticise authors that you may not completely agree with, but still hold in great esteem for the efforts and work they provided. i suppose if you take any book and just pull out the raw facts, without the opinions and lifted data, then you wouldnt be left with much (a lot of pictures). i respect all authours for having the guts, and the time and inclination to publish. i respect tirris efforts as, whether you agree or disagree with him, its still a useful book. all we can do is note references and influences, as all else is speculation. whether we agree on other opinions or not, i suppose we have to respect them as they have founding as much as your own (as long as it clearly stated to be speculation ). my feeling has always been south and the floral quillions in jens' image shows this influence. the mysore pieces from tipu/hyder ali also show this, and the pieces in the clive collection back this up. however, the floral quillion was also prevelant on mughal miniatures from the north and so this feeling lends towards assumption. when hard data lacks, all you have to go by is your own feeling and experiences, but this doesnt lend to a forum discussion. if some forum members start to discuss their true inner feelings, i feel psychiatrists and agony aunts would need to moderate instead and poor andrew would need a comfortable sofa and some ink blot images to run this forum

25th February 2005, 05:26 AM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I've defended works like Stone's in the past, and will continue to do so. Every published work contributes to our collective knowlege in some way, even with mistakes.

25th February 2005, 01:07 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	True, and people were only working with what they had available. It's frustrating to think they were closer to the source in time, but modern Western researchers have probably become somewhat more culturally open, and that helps. R.E. Howard, who sometimes seems silly by today's standards, was pretty well state of the art on anthropology and history and not bad on archaeology, for his time. Also, despite common criticism to the contrary, and his acceptance of the racial/tribal realities that dominated his time and all of human history (our time too, though people are in denial), he took occasions to get in little digs against divisionism (things like "Do you mean to tell me you're going to take the side of a Mohammedan against a man of your own race?!" "Yes, that's what I mean....")....oh, and in the stories he actually wrote, Conan used his brain (the challenge of the situation was often that his muscle an physical ability weren't enough alone), and his characters did exhibit considerable mental variety, which is why the converted stories throw the C-man's personality in annoyingly uncharacteristic directions...........off topic? Where's my dang map?