KERIS WITH IVORY HILT

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

... I have an anak alang that is just under 16", but i have also seen keris listed as anak alang as short as 12" or 13". Most of the full length panjangs i have seen are over 20".
So there appears to be a little bit of cross-over. Are some of these blades being mis-catagorized? How specific are these length limits? Could they be a bit different depending upon origin of the blade? Are there any other attribute other than length that distinguish a bahari from a anak alang from a full length panjang?

Basically the bahari, anak alang, alang, panjang are blade form of a similar class. The main difference is the length. A long bahari could be a short anak alang and a long anak alang could be a short panjang.

As far as classifications are concerned, there is no fixed length (contrary to my previous post of long ago). The thing about blades from these regions are, the moment you try to classify them, one suddenly pops up to 'defy' classification. The main reason I believe, may be due to te absence of standards to conform to, like the pakem of javanese kerises.

This blade form is not bahari class, imho.

[David]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

This blade form is not bahari class, imho.

I don't image it is an anak alang either.

As far as you know Shahrial (or anyone else ) is there any specifically different cultural importance to the three different blades in this class? Why would someone commission a bahari as opposed to an anak alang for instance. The full length panjang are know as "executioner" keris, but this certainly wasn't their main purpose for being.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

I don't image it is an anak alang either. .

Nope it's not an anak alang either.

Originally Posted by David

... Why would someone commission a bahari as opposed to an anak alang for instance. The full length panjang are know as "executioner" keris, but this certainly wasn't their main purpose for being.

The anak alang term is commonly used in Peninsular Malaysia, lesser in Sumatra.
The bahari common in Sumatra than in Peninsular Malaysia.

There are slight differences in material and other details from these two regions. Just compare a typical minangkabau bahari with a peninsular anak alang... (of course there are countless variation in between), what can you tell?

Above: A Peninsular Malay anak alang (courtesy of MAG).
Below: A Minangkabau bahari (courtesy of VVV).

As you can see, it's quite similar, with slight differences .

[David]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

The anak alang form is commonly found in Peninsular Malaysia, lesser in Sumatra.

Interestingly my anak alang is believed to be from Sumatra.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

Interestingly my anak alang is believed to be from Sumatra.

Good for you ... If you don't mind, can we see some pictures.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

The full length panjang are know as "executioner" keris, but this certainly wasn't their main purpose for being.

David, what do you think is their main purpose?

[David]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

David, what do you think is their main purpose?

Good question. I have seen very little other than vague passing remarks about the panjang, mostly alluding to it's use as an execitioners keris. I am certain that indeed it has served this purpose, but i also wonder if that isn't just an incidental purpose of status level, if indeed these blades are held by those with the authority and "right" to execute. I would guess that signal to the societal "rank" of the keris holder might be its truer purpose. I am sure that there are many of these blades around that never took a life. Does anyone have any information on just what part of the populous owned this type of keris?

[rahman]

Sorry, gang, let me just try to reframe this discussion so poor Carlos can have his answers

My first impression looking at the full profile and a bit of the fittings in the photos made me feel it is a bahari. By saying it's too long to be a bahari does not mean that I think Carlos' blade is an anak alang either.

Many Sumatran baharis display a 'tapering waist'. This is quite rare among anak alangs, on either side of the Malacca Straits.

Another thing that I missed is the fairly deep picitan on Carlos' blade.

So, please, I withdraw all remarks about baharis and anak alangs in this thread.

thanks.

[David]

Originally Posted by rahman

Sorry, gang, let me just try to reframe this discussion so poor Carlos can have his answers

Many Sumatran baharis display a 'tapering waist'. This is quite rare among anak alangs, on either side of the Malacca Straits.

Rahman, i think Carlos is getting plenty of answer inspite of our little side track into the world of bahari and anak alang.
There may be minor disagreements which might never resolve themselves completely, but i have found that to be the nature of most keris discussions. At least now we can all agree that his keris is not a bahari or anak alang.
Interestingly, my anak alang does display a somewhat "tapering waist".
Kai Wee, thanks for getting more specific about the diferences between Lumpung and Minang hilts in this form. I think these subtle differences are sometimes difficult to discern and i have a feeling that many of these hilts get misrepresented in books, auctions and websites. I am sure i have seen the ones with the more bulging eyes described as Lumpung and vice versa. Great research.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by rahman

...Many Sumatran baharis display a 'tapering waist'. This is quite rare among anak alangs, on either side of the Malacca Straits..

Not necessarily so. The 'tapering waist' is a feature of bahari class (which includes anak alang and panjang). However there are exceptions. See the examples.
(courtesy of VVV)
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...mp_j.sized.jpg
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...bahl.sized.jpg
(courtesy of BluErf)
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...lade_whole.jpg

Originally Posted by rahman

This is quite rare among anak alangs, on either side of the Malacca Straits.

Imho, not necessarily so. Although based on your specimens on "The Bangkinang Brothers", yours seems so.
An example of a Riau Anak Alang, (with the 'tapering waist').
(courtesy of Malay Art Gallery).
http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...riau_perak.htm