Choora-- Pesh Kabz-- Definition

katana · 22nd February 2007, 12:59 AM

Interesting thread...it does make you wonder how many other weapons may have gained a 'universal' name because of mistakes in translation/ language difficulties, or as a result of a name given to a weapon that perhaps was very localised to a small area (and that person was asked by the 'researcher' what 'it' was) but had a different more common name over the entire region.

I think, if the 'story' of how the choora was so named, is true. It seems likely that this would be because of language difficulties, (or an abusive interpretor

)

If this knife was used for catration

surely there would be documented evidence.....AFAIK knights had a dagger called a bollock knife, it was used to pierce the relatively unprotected groin area......could this be perhaps a possibility in the manner it was used

Rick · 22nd February 2007, 01:09 AM

The Bollock Knife is named for the shape of its hilt I believe ....

katana · 22nd February 2007, 01:27 AM

Rick, I'm not so certain you are right. There is a theory that 'form' followed function. That the dagger used by the knight to attack a 'felled' opponent in the groin area became known as a bollock knife ...and that later the spherical guard design came later. ( I suppose to advertise it's use

)

Regards David

Rick · 22nd February 2007, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Rick, I'm not so certain you are right. There is a theory that 'form' followed function. That the dagger used by the knight to attack a 'felled' opponent in the groin area became known as a bollock knife ...and that later the spherical guard design came later. ( I suppose to advertise it's use

)

Regards David

Now that's dirty pool ......

ariel · 22nd February 2007, 03:17 AM

The only example of a target-specific weapon I know is a Kubikiri: a Japanese knife to behead the dead enemy.
Felled knights were usually finished off with a Misericordia. Its thin blade (a spike, actually) was designed to stick it into the seam of sectional armor. The best place was, of course, the neck but one can easily imagine a particularly sadistic victor using... inguinal area as a target. It would be difficult to imagine a warrior carrying a panoply of implements for each particular area of the body: one for the wrist, another for the armpit, yet another one for ... bollocks. Battlefield is not a kitchen where the chef has paring knives, boning knives, slicers, dicers etc.
This is the reason I doubt the theory of the bollock knife being used for a particular function first and appropriately decorated later. Daggers and swords always had somewhat phallic connotations; the addition of ovoid protrusions to the base of the hilt just reinforced the idea.
See:
http://www.answers.com/topic/bollock-dagger

A. G. Maisey · 22nd February 2007, 08:17 AM

European daggers are a wee bit outside my area of expertise, however it has always been my understanding that the ballock dagger was the dagger which replaced the basilard, and was primarily a civilian dagger, as was the basilard.

There were instances of it being carried for a military application, but the dagger used by knights to despatch fallen opponents was not the ballock dagger, nor the basilard, but the misericorde.If it had used against an active battlefield opponent, in place of a main gauche, it would have been mightily unsuited to such application, probably being more dangerous to the user than to his opponent.

I was under the impression that it was universally accepted that the name of the ballock dagger arose from its form, not because it was used to inflict damage to the groin.

When you come to think of it, since it enjoyed such popularity as a civilian weapon, the people of that time would have had to have had an obsession with inflicting damage on one another's noble parts for it to have been named for the mode of use.

katana · 22nd February 2007, 01:57 PM

I remember seeing a series of programmes hosted by an Ancient weapons expert, unfortunately his name escapes me. He, using very old training manuscripts, books etc. has been able to 're-create' the Martial arts of earlier periods.
The swordplay of Knights is not quite the chivalrous acts of battle the 'films' would have us believe. Every part of the sword is potentually used to strike an opponent,(even holding the tip end and striking with the cross guard.. a la 'war hammer') as are elbows, knees, feet, head and fists. The dagger was a secondary weapon often used with the technique of getting your opponent to the ground. Because, of the limitations of 'moveable' armour plate in the groin area (because of the natural range of leg movement in that area would be restricated by armour) it was a natural target area when the opponent was forced to the ground. Easier, than trying to force a dagger into the gaps in the armour elsewear.
There are two main arteries (femoral) that supply blood to the legs, this main artery was the intended target in the groin area, causing rapid blood loss.

katana · 22nd February 2007, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When you come to think of it, since it enjoyed such popularity as a civilian weapon, the people of that time would have had to have had an obsession with inflicting damage on one another's noble parts for it to have been named for the mode of use.

I am not saying that the bollock knife was used exclusively to attack the groin....more of a 'nick name' ...that stuck.

As to names ...the humble 'pen knife' was originally used to re-point a writing quill......that function is no longer necessary.....but the name 'stuck' and is still in common useage.

kronckew · 22nd February 2007, 05:02 PM

it'd be a lot easier to shove one of these thru an eye slit in a helmet than thru the mail at the groin if the opponent was down.(my knife)

the ballock grip looks a bit like a Scottish dirk taken to it's suggestive extreme, i understand the raunchy Elizabethans wore these on the front rather that on the hip or small of the back to emphasize the phallic connotation.

22nd February 2007, 01:57 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I remember seeing a series of programmes hosted by an Ancient weapons expert, unfortunately his name escapes me. He, using very old training manuscripts, books etc. has been able to 're-create' the Martial arts of earlier periods. The swordplay of Knights is not quite the chivalrous acts of battle the 'films' would have us believe. Every part of the sword is potentually used to strike an opponent,(even holding the tip end and striking with the cross guard.. a la 'war hammer') as are elbows, knees, feet, head and fists. The dagger was a secondary weapon often used with the technique of getting your opponent to the ground. Because, of the limitations of 'moveable' armour plate in the groin area (because of the natural range of leg movement in that area would be restricated by armour) it was a natural target area when the opponent was forced to the ground. Easier, than trying to force a dagger into the gaps in the armour elsewear. There are two main arteries (femoral) that supply blood to the legs, this main artery was the intended target in the groin area, causing rapid blood loss. Attached Images Last edited by katana; 22nd February 2007 at 02:30 PM.

22nd February 2007, 12:59 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Interesting thread...it does make you wonder how many other weapons may have gained a 'universal' name because of mistakes in translation/ language difficulties, or as a result of a name given to a weapon that perhaps was very localised to a small area (and that person was asked by the 'researcher' what 'it' was) but had a different more common name over the entire region. I think, if the 'story' of how the choora was so named, is true. It seems likely that this would be because of language difficulties, (or an abusive interpretor ) If this knife was used for catration surely there would be documented evidence.....AFAIK knights had a dagger called a bollock knife, it was used to pierce the relatively unprotected groin area......could this be perhaps a possibility in the manner it was used

22nd February 2007, 01:09 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	The Bollock Knife is named for the shape of its hilt I believe ....

22nd February 2007, 01:27 AM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Rick, I'm not so certain you are right. There is a theory that 'form' followed function. That the dagger used by the knight to attack a 'felled' opponent in the groin area became known as a bollock knife ...and that later the spherical guard design came later. ( I suppose to advertise it's use ) Regards David

22nd February 2007, 03:17 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The only example of a target-specific weapon I know is a Kubikiri: a Japanese knife to behead the dead enemy. Felled knights were usually finished off with a Misericordia. Its thin blade (a spike, actually) was designed to stick it into the seam of sectional armor. The best place was, of course, the neck but one can easily imagine a particularly sadistic victor using... inguinal area as a target. It would be difficult to imagine a warrior carrying a panoply of implements for each particular area of the body: one for the wrist, another for the armpit, yet another one for ... bollocks. Battlefield is not a kitchen where the chef has paring knives, boning knives, slicers, dicers etc. This is the reason I doubt the theory of the bollock knife being used for a particular function first and appropriately decorated later. Daggers and swords always had somewhat phallic connotations; the addition of ovoid protrusions to the base of the hilt just reinforced the idea. See: http://www.answers.com/topic/bollock-dagger

22nd February 2007, 08:17 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	European daggers are a wee bit outside my area of expertise, however it has always been my understanding that the ballock dagger was the dagger which replaced the basilard, and was primarily a civilian dagger, as was the basilard. There were instances of it being carried for a military application, but the dagger used by knights to despatch fallen opponents was not the ballock dagger, nor the basilard, but the misericorde.If it had used against an active battlefield opponent, in place of a main gauche, it would have been mightily unsuited to such application, probably being more dangerous to the user than to his opponent. I was under the impression that it was universally accepted that the name of the ballock dagger arose from its form, not because it was used to inflict damage to the groin. When you come to think of it, since it enjoyed such popularity as a civilian weapon, the people of that time would have had to have had an obsession with inflicting damage on one another's noble parts for it to have been named for the mode of use.

22nd February 2007, 05:02 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	it'd be a lot easier to shove one of these thru an eye slit in a helmet than thru the mail at the groin if the opponent was down.(my knife) the ballock grip looks a bit like a Scottish dirk taken to it's suggestive extreme, i understand the raunchy Elizabethans wore these on the front rather that on the hip or small of the back to emphasize the phallic connotation.