A Berber saber?

[spiral]

Fascinating to my mind that the front of the scabbard seems to carry the belt, strap or tie, holder? rather than the presuamably seamed rear, , has anyone seen other examples of this front belt hanger before? I canrt recall any, myself.In european or indeed any other designs? {Althoughf of course it is a similar front affixing the loops & buttons serve on traditional kukri.. but I digress.}

Spiral

[ariel]

Originally Posted by spiral

Fascinating to my mind that the front of the scabbard seems to carry the belt, strap or tie, holder? rather than the presuamably seamed rear, , has anyone seen other examples of this front belt hanger before? I canrt recall any, myself.In european or indeed any other designs? {Althoughf of course it is a similar front affixing the loops & buttons serve on traditional kukri.. but I digress.}

Spiral

Not necessarily: it could have been worn shashka-style: edge up. My Bedouin " shashkas", however, are : one with a baldrick arragement and another with a kind of leather ring around the scabbard ( wear it any way you choose...)
Artzi is the person whose brain should be picked. He forgot more about Middle Eastern weapons than all of us remember.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by ariel

Not necessarily: it could have been worn shashka-style: edge up. .

My point was rather it was unlikely that the decoration was on the rear of the scabbard & the seam on the front?

That would remain the same whether worn edge up or down, I would imagine?

Spiral

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by spiral

My point was rather it was unlikely that the decoration was on the rear of the scabbard & the seam on the front?

That would remain the same whether worn edge up or down, I would imagine?

Spiral

Worn edge up for right hand draw, with the belt passing over the scabbard and through the loop. That would match the stain/wear pattern that's visible. Having the scabbard held in place by the belt, rather than merely being supported by it, is actually quite common in the middle east, though I believe it's seen more often with daggers than swords.

[Valjhun]

Ehm... Here come its bigger twin with scabbard.
Sea? NO WAY. Just a beautiful example of a nimcha from maghrib, not typical without its guard, which in fact was never mounted on that sword.

Blade is heavy and locally made. The smith tried to make a copy of an european blade, I think.

FernisWolf, any chance you want a divorce from your sword?

[TVV]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but here is an eBay auction, which ended today for a similar item:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...OIBUAA:US:1123

The question is - Central America or Northern Africa? I find myself leaning towards Central America.

Regards,

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely no need to apologize for follow up on an intriguing and ongoing investigation Teodor! and nicely done comparison. In the earliest years these 'Berber' sabres started turning up, I was satisfied with that identification. In later years, questions arose, some of these turned up in 19th century to early 20th c. Mexican sword groupings.
In review of the catalog of the collection of the late Charles Buttin (Rumilly,1933) which is intensely comprehensive, especially in weapons from Morocco, where he lived for many years, reveal no examples of this sword type. In other works by him, these are noticeably absent. In related discussions with other figures involved in study on the arms of Morocco and the Maghreb overall, the opinion that these curious sabres were not Moroccan seemed to prevail.
Other resources which include the weapons of the Maghreb and North Africa overall also have no examples of these sabres present, although later, the book by Anthony Tirri does show them as Moroccan ("Islamic Weapons: Maghreb to Moghul", 2003). In this book, these are shown as 19th century from southwestern Morocco in the Spanish Sahara (p.26) but no supporting data or reference is included.

I'm inclined to agree Teodor that these may well have Central American, or perhaps even Cuban or Philippines origins, and as with certain other instances, may have become souveniers from Spanish American War period.

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. one thing that always got my interest is the distinctly profiled blade tip on many of these (often British M1796 cavalry sabre blades) in my view reminds me of the blade tips on many kampilan. Admittedly free association, but curious just the same.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by TVV

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but here is an eBay auction, which ended today for a similar item:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...OIBUAA:US:1123

The question is - Central America or Northern Africa? I find myself leaning towards Central America.

Regards,

Teodor

With all due respect, Teodor, there is not such that style of work in Central América.

I must say, also, that leather work from Mexico is easily distinguishable, so it can be discriminated from the leather work of other places.
Regards

Gonzalo