Choora-- Pesh Kabz-- Definition

Berkley · 21st February 2007, 06:36 PM

Quote:

The gentleman in question was Lord Egerton of Tatton

Interesting, as the word "choora" does not appear in the index or, so far as I can tell, the text of Egerton's Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour, although the term "Peshkabz" appears several times.

ariel · 21st February 2007, 10:03 PM

It is also called Shotor Kosh in Iran: "Camel Killer" or close to that.
Any funny stories about that name?

katana · 22nd February 2007, 12:59 AM

Interesting thread...it does make you wonder how many other weapons may have gained a 'universal' name because of mistakes in translation/ language difficulties, or as a result of a name given to a weapon that perhaps was very localised to a small area (and that person was asked by the 'researcher' what 'it' was) but had a different more common name over the entire region.

I think, if the 'story' of how the choora was so named, is true. It seems likely that this would be because of language difficulties, (or an abusive interpretor

)

If this knife was used for catration

surely there would be documented evidence.....AFAIK knights had a dagger called a bollock knife, it was used to pierce the relatively unprotected groin area......could this be perhaps a possibility in the manner it was used

Rick · 22nd February 2007, 01:09 AM

The Bollock Knife is named for the shape of its hilt I believe ....

katana · 22nd February 2007, 01:27 AM

Rick, I'm not so certain you are right. There is a theory that 'form' followed function. That the dagger used by the knight to attack a 'felled' opponent in the groin area became known as a bollock knife ...and that later the spherical guard design came later. ( I suppose to advertise it's use

)

Regards David

Rick · 22nd February 2007, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Rick, I'm not so certain you are right. There is a theory that 'form' followed function. That the dagger used by the knight to attack a 'felled' opponent in the groin area became known as a bollock knife ...and that later the spherical guard design came later. ( I suppose to advertise it's use

)

Regards David

Now that's dirty pool ......

ariel · 22nd February 2007, 03:17 AM

The only example of a target-specific weapon I know is a Kubikiri: a Japanese knife to behead the dead enemy.
Felled knights were usually finished off with a Misericordia. Its thin blade (a spike, actually) was designed to stick it into the seam of sectional armor. The best place was, of course, the neck but one can easily imagine a particularly sadistic victor using... inguinal area as a target. It would be difficult to imagine a warrior carrying a panoply of implements for each particular area of the body: one for the wrist, another for the armpit, yet another one for ... bollocks. Battlefield is not a kitchen where the chef has paring knives, boning knives, slicers, dicers etc.
This is the reason I doubt the theory of the bollock knife being used for a particular function first and appropriately decorated later. Daggers and swords always had somewhat phallic connotations; the addition of ovoid protrusions to the base of the hilt just reinforced the idea.
See:
http://www.answers.com/topic/bollock-dagger

A. G. Maisey · 22nd February 2007, 08:17 AM

European daggers are a wee bit outside my area of expertise, however it has always been my understanding that the ballock dagger was the dagger which replaced the basilard, and was primarily a civilian dagger, as was the basilard.

There were instances of it being carried for a military application, but the dagger used by knights to despatch fallen opponents was not the ballock dagger, nor the basilard, but the misericorde.If it had used against an active battlefield opponent, in place of a main gauche, it would have been mightily unsuited to such application, probably being more dangerous to the user than to his opponent.

I was under the impression that it was universally accepted that the name of the ballock dagger arose from its form, not because it was used to inflict damage to the groin.

When you come to think of it, since it enjoyed such popularity as a civilian weapon, the people of that time would have had to have had an obsession with inflicting damage on one another's noble parts for it to have been named for the mode of use.

21st February 2007, 10:03 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is also called Shotor Kosh in Iran: "Camel Killer" or close to that. Any funny stories about that name?

22nd February 2007, 12:59 AM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Interesting thread...it does make you wonder how many other weapons may have gained a 'universal' name because of mistakes in translation/ language difficulties, or as a result of a name given to a weapon that perhaps was very localised to a small area (and that person was asked by the 'researcher' what 'it' was) but had a different more common name over the entire region. I think, if the 'story' of how the choora was so named, is true. It seems likely that this would be because of language difficulties, (or an abusive interpretor ) If this knife was used for catration surely there would be documented evidence.....AFAIK knights had a dagger called a bollock knife, it was used to pierce the relatively unprotected groin area......could this be perhaps a possibility in the manner it was used

22nd February 2007, 01:09 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	The Bollock Knife is named for the shape of its hilt I believe ....

22nd February 2007, 01:27 AM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Rick, I'm not so certain you are right. There is a theory that 'form' followed function. That the dagger used by the knight to attack a 'felled' opponent in the groin area became known as a bollock knife ...and that later the spherical guard design came later. ( I suppose to advertise it's use ) Regards David

22nd February 2007, 03:17 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The only example of a target-specific weapon I know is a Kubikiri: a Japanese knife to behead the dead enemy. Felled knights were usually finished off with a Misericordia. Its thin blade (a spike, actually) was designed to stick it into the seam of sectional armor. The best place was, of course, the neck but one can easily imagine a particularly sadistic victor using... inguinal area as a target. It would be difficult to imagine a warrior carrying a panoply of implements for each particular area of the body: one for the wrist, another for the armpit, yet another one for ... bollocks. Battlefield is not a kitchen where the chef has paring knives, boning knives, slicers, dicers etc. This is the reason I doubt the theory of the bollock knife being used for a particular function first and appropriately decorated later. Daggers and swords always had somewhat phallic connotations; the addition of ovoid protrusions to the base of the hilt just reinforced the idea. See: http://www.answers.com/topic/bollock-dagger

22nd February 2007, 08:17 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	European daggers are a wee bit outside my area of expertise, however it has always been my understanding that the ballock dagger was the dagger which replaced the basilard, and was primarily a civilian dagger, as was the basilard. There were instances of it being carried for a military application, but the dagger used by knights to despatch fallen opponents was not the ballock dagger, nor the basilard, but the misericorde.If it had used against an active battlefield opponent, in place of a main gauche, it would have been mightily unsuited to such application, probably being more dangerous to the user than to his opponent. I was under the impression that it was universally accepted that the name of the ballock dagger arose from its form, not because it was used to inflict damage to the groin. When you come to think of it, since it enjoyed such popularity as a civilian weapon, the people of that time would have had to have had an obsession with inflicting damage on one another's noble parts for it to have been named for the mode of use.