Old Bichwa Dagger

Emanuel · 20th February 2007, 12:34 PM

Hello,

The eyelash mark is the gurda on Chechen/Georgiena/Caucasian shashkas, so what is it doing on Indian blades. The same mark consistently appears on tulwars as well...would this be a case of coincidence or imitation? If the latter, then in which direction?
Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 20th February 2007, 09:44 PM

Yes, indeed I did Katana, but I asked the question differently

.

Notice that the shark teeth sometimes are inwards and sometimes outwards – interesting. Could mean that the one making them could not remember on which side the – teeth should be, but it could also have another meaning, not known to us yet – or maybe the meaning is forgotten, but it could also be a wish to copy a known quality mark.

Jim McDougall · 25th February 2007, 09:14 PM

These trade markings, which are often termed 'sickle' marks in much of the literature on arms, are thought to derive from early markings found on the blades of Italian swords, specifically those from Genoa (see concurrent discussion on 'clunker saif'). As Jens has noted, it does not seem these have ever occurred on edged weapons other than swords. It seems to me interesting that while sword blades were often trade commodities, it does not appear that dagger or knife blades were. Although certainly daggers or knives probably diffused along the usual trade routes, they mostly appear to have done so fully mounted.
Since these 'sickle' or eyelash marks were typically added to trade blades or native made blades heralding the quality of the blade itself, such 'trade' marks are not known on daggers or knives (of course excluding talismanic or other motif or markings).

While the sickle marks are indeed found on many Caucasian blades (where they are often termed 'gurda' or 'quality' blades), the markings themselves imitate the same type markings seen on blades from Germany and Styria. These were in turn applied spuriously in imitation of the highly regarded trade blades from Italy. It seems that these sickle marks occur almost invariably on examples of the 'paluoar' typically from Afghanistan and the Northwest frontier, and of course occasionally on tulwar examples from Indian regions nearer these borders.
As far as this marking being associated with Sikhs, in research I have done in the past, I have been told that there are not any specific symbols or markings applied to weapons that are exclusive to the Sikh Faith.

Best regards,
Jim

20th February 2007, 09:44 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes, indeed I did Katana, but I asked the question differently. Notice that the shark teeth sometimes are inwards and sometimes outwards – interesting. Could mean that the one making them could not remember on which side the – teeth should be, but it could also have another meaning, not known to us yet – or maybe the meaning is forgotten, but it could also be a wish to copy a known quality mark.

20th February 2007, 12:34 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, The eyelash mark is the gurda on Chechen/Georgiena/Caucasian shashkas, so what is it doing on Indian blades. The same mark consistently appears on tulwars as well...would this be a case of coincidence or imitation? If the latter, then in which direction? Emanuel

25th February 2007, 09:14 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	These trade markings, which are often termed 'sickle' marks in much of the literature on arms, are thought to derive from early markings found on the blades of Italian swords, specifically those from Genoa (see concurrent discussion on 'clunker saif'). As Jens has noted, it does not seem these have ever occurred on edged weapons other than swords. It seems to me interesting that while sword blades were often trade commodities, it does not appear that dagger or knife blades were. Although certainly daggers or knives probably diffused along the usual trade routes, they mostly appear to have done so fully mounted. Since these 'sickle' or eyelash marks were typically added to trade blades or native made blades heralding the quality of the blade itself, such 'trade' marks are not known on daggers or knives (of course excluding talismanic or other motif or markings). While the sickle marks are indeed found on many Caucasian blades (where they are often termed 'gurda' or 'quality' blades), the markings themselves imitate the same type markings seen on blades from Germany and Styria. These were in turn applied spuriously in imitation of the highly regarded trade blades from Italy. It seems that these sickle marks occur almost invariably on examples of the 'paluoar' typically from Afghanistan and the Northwest frontier, and of course occasionally on tulwar examples from Indian regions nearer these borders. As far as this marking being associated with Sikhs, in research I have done in the past, I have been told that there are not any specific symbols or markings applied to weapons that are exclusive to the Sikh Faith. Best regards, Jim