clunker saif?

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2007, 12:17 AM

Hi Wayne,
Extremely well written and thought out post responding to the Genoa markings and Caucasian trade blades!
Actually what I was suggesting, and apparantly could have worded better, was that this blade, of uncertain origin appears to have had motif and the 'Genoan' marking added, probably by a tribal armourer in the Maghreb.
The point that I was bringing up about the ' sickle mark' used in linear motif was known to occur on the blades from the Caucusus, and that this much more crudely done representation suggested that these blades must have been known to the armourer. The only other place I know of this linear motif with these sickle marks besides the Caucusus has been an example of sword in India, so it seemed most interesting to see it here in the Maghreb.

My note on the transcribing of words and lettering by armourers or blacksmiths on these refurbished blades simply was suggesting that the obvious errors were a result of being done by a person not able to read the language, and quite possibly illiterate even in thier own language. I'm sure that if I were trying to inscribe something in Cyrillic, the end result would probably even be worse than this !

considering my limited knowledge of Russian.

Thank you for the outstanding and informative post concerning possibilities concerning these 'Genoan' markings and the very impressive deductive reasoning you present to support your observations ! My point could certainly have been presented more clearly, so my apologies for the wild goose chase!

All best regards,
Jim

Pukka Bundook · 18th February 2007, 02:35 AM

Jim,
Re. the backwards 'N', I was looking at a rather nice Italian 18th century flint sporting gun recently, the lock was signed, And the 'N' was backwards!

Sooo, room for thought......

BSMStar · 18th February 2007, 04:19 AM

Jim, there is no reason to apologize… your points are well taken and I was just following up on them. My theory is no more correct than any other… I just chose to follow the three clues, 1. the location, 2. the language, and 3.the historical context… but my ideas are still just a theory.

Best regards,

Wayne

ariel · 19th February 2007, 12:06 AM

Wayne,
With all due respect, I can assure you with a 100% certainty that the inscription has nothing to do with Russian. This is a classic mis-representation of the Latin N, not Russian I. It is seen routinely on a multitude of Oriental blades attempting to imitate European origin. There is no place named Saiol in Russia to start with; there is Saiol in Spain and Sayol in Iran. Neither of these places are known for using Cyrillic. There is no word or name Saiol in Russian.
Furthermore, before 1918, any Russian word ending with a consonant had an additional letter Yat after the final consonant. You can see it here
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/cyrillic.htm
marked in red.
The presumed "Saiol" does not have it.
Please, can we consider it as an end of story?

BSMStar · 19th February 2007, 01:11 PM

Ariel,

I would total agree with you, except for the glaring letter lambda at the end of the word (it is not the letter A). Look at your link (look at the 10th century version letter L – I have seen this version of the letter L in WWII Soviet Documents). If we were just debating the Cyrillic “и,” then I would have to agree with you… but where are we seeing the letter A? It may be your opinion that this is not Cyrillic. For me, being a Soviet period collector, all of the letters fall in line with being Cyrillic. Jim has placed the sword in what would be the Russian empire… of course; then again you may be right… Seiol (сеиол) = Genoa (геноа). I will assume that you are the expert and that you are correct. I apology for voicing another option. Consider it the end of the story.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2007, 03:20 PM

BSMstar,
Please try to understand...I am NOT placing this sword in the Russian empire, or anywhere other than the Maghreb!
What I have said is that the markings and motif appear to be 'native' attempts at duplicating the motif from blades I have seen from the Caucusus. I was noting that this suggested that the armourer IN THE MAGHREB who was working on this blade appeared to have knowledge of these Caucasian blades.
This was what was meant by 'wild goose chase'

as you were pursuing this sword coming FROM the Caucusus, which it clearly is not.

I hope this will place this line of discussion back on the right track.

The discussion of Russian letters pertaining to this sword is desperately moot.

All the best,
Jim

BSMStar · 19th February 2007, 07:13 PM

My apologies Jim,

I was thinking a bit out loud, me thinks… I do not think the sword was made in Russia, I think this trade sword could have made its way in that direction. With the possible influences that you pointed out, I was trying to point out another possible “influence.” While the stamped letters could be anything or nothing… I was entertaining the notion that it could be something along that line of reasoning. When adding the clues, I vocalize your meaning more strongly than intended... again I apologize.

Ariel,

I am only stating an opinion that may have some validity (I have not said that anyone else is wrong)… if you believe that it is unlikely… I do not have a problem with that.

Just give some supporting data that disproves my theory that these are Cyrillic letters. I would hate to dismiss outright, what may be a more interesting history with this sword.

To definitively prove the letters are not Cyrillic, one must know the history behind this specific sword (have a traceable and documented record of who has owned this sword and where they lived would leave no doubt).

Were North African trade swords being stamped with Cyrillic letters (out of North Africa)? If so, what test can one use to tell the difference North African Cyrillic like letters and true Cyrillic letters (how do we know that they did not travel to Russia where there is a large number of Islamic countries/states)?

Maybe if someone could post other examples of this exact stamp (that are known), since I am not familiar with this stamp being a common old “forgery.”

Best regards,

Wayne

18th February 2007, 12:17 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Wayne, Extremely well written and thought out post responding to the Genoa markings and Caucasian trade blades! Actually what I was suggesting, and apparantly could have worded better, was that this blade, of uncertain origin appears to have had motif and the 'Genoan' marking added, probably by a tribal armourer in the Maghreb. The point that I was bringing up about the ' sickle mark' used in linear motif was known to occur on the blades from the Caucusus, and that this much more crudely done representation suggested that these blades must have been known to the armourer. The only other place I know of this linear motif with these sickle marks besides the Caucusus has been an example of sword in India, so it seemed most interesting to see it here in the Maghreb. My note on the transcribing of words and lettering by armourers or blacksmiths on these refurbished blades simply was suggesting that the obvious errors were a result of being done by a person not able to read the language, and quite possibly illiterate even in thier own language. I'm sure that if I were trying to inscribe something in Cyrillic, the end result would probably even be worse than this ! considering my limited knowledge of Russian. Thank you for the outstanding and informative post concerning possibilities concerning these 'Genoan' markings and the very impressive deductive reasoning you present to support your observations ! My point could certainly have been presented more clearly, so my apologies for the wild goose chase! All best regards, Jim

18th February 2007, 02:35 AM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jim, Re. the backwards 'N', I was looking at a rather nice Italian 18th century flint sporting gun recently, the lock was signed, And the 'N' was backwards! Sooo, room for thought......

18th February 2007, 04:19 AM	#3
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Jim, there is no reason to apologize… your points are well taken and I was just following up on them. My theory is no more correct than any other… I just chose to follow the three clues, 1. the location, 2. the language, and 3.the historical context… but my ideas are still just a theory. Best regards, Wayne

19th February 2007, 12:06 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wayne, With all due respect, I can assure you with a 100% certainty that the inscription has nothing to do with Russian. This is a classic mis-representation of the Latin N, not Russian I. It is seen routinely on a multitude of Oriental blades attempting to imitate European origin. There is no place named Saiol in Russia to start with; there is Saiol in Spain and Sayol in Iran. Neither of these places are known for using Cyrillic. There is no word or name Saiol in Russian. Furthermore, before 1918, any Russian word ending with a consonant had an additional letter Yat after the final consonant. You can see it here http://www.omniglot.com/writing/cyrillic.htm marked in red. The presumed "Saiol" does not have it. Please, can we consider it as an end of story?

19th February 2007, 01:11 PM	#5
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Ariel, I would total agree with you, except for the glaring letter lambda at the end of the word (it is not the letter A). Look at your link (look at the 10th century version letter L – I have seen this version of the letter L in WWII Soviet Documents). If we were just debating the Cyrillic “и,” then I would have to agree with you… but where are we seeing the letter A? It may be your opinion that this is not Cyrillic. For me, being a Soviet period collector, all of the letters fall in line with being Cyrillic. Jim has placed the sword in what would be the Russian empire… of course; then again you may be right… Seiol (сеиол) = Genoa (геноа). I will assume that you are the expert and that you are correct. I apology for voicing another option. Consider it the end of the story.

19th February 2007, 03:20 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	BSMstar, Please try to understand...I am NOT placing this sword in the Russian empire, or anywhere other than the Maghreb! What I have said is that the markings and motif appear to be 'native' attempts at duplicating the motif from blades I have seen from the Caucusus. I was noting that this suggested that the armourer IN THE MAGHREB who was working on this blade appeared to have knowledge of these Caucasian blades. This was what was meant by 'wild goose chase' as you were pursuing this sword coming FROM the Caucusus, which it clearly is not. I hope this will place this line of discussion back on the right track. The discussion of Russian letters pertaining to this sword is desperately moot. All the best, Jim

19th February 2007, 07:13 PM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	My apologies Jim, I was thinking a bit out loud, me thinks… I do not think the sword was made in Russia, I think this trade sword could have made its way in that direction. With the possible influences that you pointed out, I was trying to point out another possible “influence.” While the stamped letters could be anything or nothing… I was entertaining the notion that it could be something along that line of reasoning. When adding the clues, I vocalize your meaning more strongly than intended... again I apologize. Ariel, I am only stating an opinion that may have some validity (I have not said that anyone else is wrong)… if you believe that it is unlikely… I do not have a problem with that. Just give some supporting data that disproves my theory that these are Cyrillic letters. I would hate to dismiss outright, what may be a more interesting history with this sword. To definitively prove the letters are not Cyrillic, one must know the history behind this specific sword (have a traceable and documented record of who has owned this sword and where they lived would leave no doubt). Were North African trade swords being stamped with Cyrillic letters (out of North Africa)? If so, what test can one use to tell the difference North African Cyrillic like letters and true Cyrillic letters (how do we know that they did not travel to Russia where there is a large number of Islamic countries/states)? Maybe if someone could post other examples of this exact stamp (that are known), since I am not familiar with this stamp being a common old “forgery.” Best regards, Wayne