Indo persian ? Arabic curved 'working' knife

VANDOO · 15th February 2007, 05:45 PM

THIS DESIGN WOULD WORK WELL FOR CUTTING THRU REIGNS OR HARNESS ON RIDING ANIMALS OR ROPES, ECT. IT COULD FUNCTION FOR CUTTING A THROAT BUT SO CAN MORE COMMON SHAPED BLADES WITH MUCH LESS CURVE AND THEY COULD ALSO SERVE MUCH BETTER IN A FIGHT. THEY WOULD WORK WELL TO HOOK INTO SOMEONE AND THE MORE THEY PULLED AWAY THE DEEPER IT WOULD CUT SO YOU COULD PULL THEM TOWARD ANOTHER WEAPON. I USED TO KNOW A FELLOW WHO CARRIED A KNIFE KIND OF CURVED LIKE A CARPET KNIFE ,HE REFERED TO IT AS HIS "COME HITHER KNIFE" SAYING IF THEY TRYED TO RUN AWAY IT WOULD HOOK IN AND CUT DEEPER UNTIL THE WOULD COME HITHER.

JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT BUT IT PROBABLY HAD SOME SPECIAL REASON OR MEANING TO THE GROUP CARRIENG THEM UNKNOWN TO ME AND HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW THE BLADE WOULD FUNCTION IN USE.

A. G. Maisey · 15th February 2007, 09:47 PM

I've looked at this knife a lot of times since its been posted.

The blade geometry makes it far from ideal as a blade designed to cut cleanly and deeply through flesh. The central spine has the effect of strengthening a blade at the expense of reducing its ability to cut cleanly and deeply, and to hold an edge; this is caused by the angle formed by the sides of the blade as they decline to the cutting edge.

Look at the other extreme of blade geometry in an old fashioned straight razor:- the blade is deeply hollow ground giving an exceptionally narrow angle to the blade sides as they decline to the cutting edge.

I've owned several Indian banks over the years, and handled many more. All that I have handled have been smallish, neat knives, and all had blade geometry that provided a decline to the cutting edge from the blade back. In other words, a blade that would take and hold a fine edge.

I have owned and handled a considerable number of lawi ayam of various designs, sizes and origins. They have ranged from a knife only about 2.5 inches long with a single edge, to serious daggers with two cutting edges and a length of about 9 inches. All have had very deeply curved blades.

The knife currently under discussion looks nothing like any bank I have ever seen, and does not resemble in the slightest degree a lawi ayam.

Having said that, I also must say that I do not have the vaguest idea what it might be. However, when we come across something that has not been illustrated somewhere it is quite possible that we may be looking at an individual piece that somebody has had made for a specific purpose. I have seen things such as this in Indonesia, also in Australia, and when I was doing custom knife work I accepted several orders for individual designs that in 100 years time will definitely cause somebody who encounters them to ask exactly what they were for.
The more I look at this knife, and always assuming that we are looking at its original form, the more I feel that we are looking at a tool. Possibly a market place tool where the weapon style handle would give a bit of pizzazz to the person using it. Something to cut candy? Something to cut ice? Something to cut melons?

spiral · 15th February 2007, 11:55 PM

Without handling it impossible to say, but perhaps an agricultral crop knife married to a more "weaponry" based handle?

Just looks wrong to my eye.

In Nepal such blades are also used to cut wool from sheep, {I would have to look up the name from my notes.} but they dont have handles like that.

Spiral

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2007, 03:43 AM

Even with it in my hand I doubt that that I would have any idea what it is. I've simply never seen anything like it.

Maybe a barber's tool to scrape the stubble off people with bald heads?

A gardener's pruning hook?

It looks to me like it would be close to perfect for harvesting grapes.

Once we start to guess about these things with no real knowledge of what we are looking at we can have hours of endless fun.

A tool to scrape the mud off a lawn roller?

spiral · 16th February 2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Even with it in my hand I doubt that that I would have any idea what it is. I've simply never seen anything like it.

But you might be able to see how it is pit together more clearly? & generaly deduce whether it is a marriage or not perhaps?

Spiral

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2007, 10:29 AM

Yeah, maybe. Also, maybe not. I just don't like to guess about things without a really solid foundation to build the guesses on. With no knowledge of exactly where this thing came from, when it was made, what its provenance is, and no illustrated example, as well as no cultural nor societal knowledge of the place where it might have come from, I would seriously hesitate to hypothesise about what it might be. That's what I said a little while ago:- when we start to guess about these things we can have hours of endless fun. Lots of fun, but no real, supportable conclusions.

A tool to scrape the rust off 44gallon drums?

Maybe it doesn't come from the middle east at all, maybe it comes from Africa, and they use to castrate rogue elephants.

spiral · 16th February 2007, 10:39 AM

As you say maybe, maybe not.

I find more evidence is generaly worth having , particularily the differance between one poor side veiw photo & handling something.

But sure not evry piece gives up its answears, to our questians..

I agree guessing at its use doesnt help provide any further evidence.

I still guess theres a good chance its an agricutural blade jammed in a weapon handle.

But I could be so very wrong!

Spiral

15th February 2007, 05:45 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS DESIGN WOULD WORK WELL FOR CUTTING THRU REIGNS OR HARNESS ON RIDING ANIMALS OR ROPES, ECT. IT COULD FUNCTION FOR CUTTING A THROAT BUT SO CAN MORE COMMON SHAPED BLADES WITH MUCH LESS CURVE AND THEY COULD ALSO SERVE MUCH BETTER IN A FIGHT. THEY WOULD WORK WELL TO HOOK INTO SOMEONE AND THE MORE THEY PULLED AWAY THE DEEPER IT WOULD CUT SO YOU COULD PULL THEM TOWARD ANOTHER WEAPON. I USED TO KNOW A FELLOW WHO CARRIED A KNIFE KIND OF CURVED LIKE A CARPET KNIFE ,HE REFERED TO IT AS HIS "COME HITHER KNIFE" SAYING IF THEY TRYED TO RUN AWAY IT WOULD HOOK IN AND CUT DEEPER UNTIL THE WOULD COME HITHER. JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT BUT IT PROBABLY HAD SOME SPECIAL REASON OR MEANING TO THE GROUP CARRIENG THEM UNKNOWN TO ME AND HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW THE BLADE WOULD FUNCTION IN USE.

15th February 2007, 09:47 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I've looked at this knife a lot of times since its been posted. The blade geometry makes it far from ideal as a blade designed to cut cleanly and deeply through flesh. The central spine has the effect of strengthening a blade at the expense of reducing its ability to cut cleanly and deeply, and to hold an edge; this is caused by the angle formed by the sides of the blade as they decline to the cutting edge. Look at the other extreme of blade geometry in an old fashioned straight razor:- the blade is deeply hollow ground giving an exceptionally narrow angle to the blade sides as they decline to the cutting edge. I've owned several Indian banks over the years, and handled many more. All that I have handled have been smallish, neat knives, and all had blade geometry that provided a decline to the cutting edge from the blade back. In other words, a blade that would take and hold a fine edge. I have owned and handled a considerable number of lawi ayam of various designs, sizes and origins. They have ranged from a knife only about 2.5 inches long with a single edge, to serious daggers with two cutting edges and a length of about 9 inches. All have had very deeply curved blades. The knife currently under discussion looks nothing like any bank I have ever seen, and does not resemble in the slightest degree a lawi ayam. Having said that, I also must say that I do not have the vaguest idea what it might be. However, when we come across something that has not been illustrated somewhere it is quite possible that we may be looking at an individual piece that somebody has had made for a specific purpose. I have seen things such as this in Indonesia, also in Australia, and when I was doing custom knife work I accepted several orders for individual designs that in 100 years time will definitely cause somebody who encounters them to ask exactly what they were for. The more I look at this knife, and always assuming that we are looking at its original form, the more I feel that we are looking at a tool. Possibly a market place tool where the weapon style handle would give a bit of pizzazz to the person using it. Something to cut candy? Something to cut ice? Something to cut melons?

15th February 2007, 11:55 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Without handling it impossible to say, but perhaps an agricultral crop knife married to a more "weaponry" based handle? Just looks wrong to my eye. In Nepal such blades are also used to cut wool from sheep, {I would have to look up the name from my notes.} but they dont have handles like that. Spiral

16th February 2007, 03:43 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Even with it in my hand I doubt that that I would have any idea what it is. I've simply never seen anything like it. Maybe a barber's tool to scrape the stubble off people with bald heads? A gardener's pruning hook? It looks to me like it would be close to perfect for harvesting grapes. Once we start to guess about these things with no real knowledge of what we are looking at we can have hours of endless fun. A tool to scrape the mud off a lawn roller?

16th February 2007, 10:29 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Yeah, maybe. Also, maybe not. I just don't like to guess about things without a really solid foundation to build the guesses on. With no knowledge of exactly where this thing came from, when it was made, what its provenance is, and no illustrated example, as well as no cultural nor societal knowledge of the place where it might have come from, I would seriously hesitate to hypothesise about what it might be. That's what I said a little while ago:- when we start to guess about these things we can have hours of endless fun. Lots of fun, but no real, supportable conclusions. A tool to scrape the rust off 44gallon drums? Maybe it doesn't come from the middle east at all, maybe it comes from Africa, and they use to castrate rogue elephants.

16th February 2007, 10:39 AM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	As you say maybe, maybe not. I find more evidence is generaly worth having , particularily the differance between one poor side veiw photo & handling something. But sure not evry piece gives up its answears, to our questians.. I agree guessing at its use doesnt help provide any further evidence. I still guess theres a good chance its an agricutural blade jammed in a weapon handle. But I could be so very wrong! Spiral