Interesting Tribal Shaska with wootz blade

ariel · 6th December 2004, 02:06 AM

I'd like to see the close-up of the handle, but I am willing to bet it is not an award. The awards worn on the sword handle are either St. Anna IV degree or St. George and neither has the configuration seen here. This one, looking like a comma, was a reasonably frequent decorative stud (or a between-studs gee-gaw) seen on either Circassian or, more often, Chechen shashkas. The blade is obviously Persian , taken from a Shamshir, and I would vote for the Chechen origin of the weapon.
Nice one... Pity the scabbard did not survive...

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2004, 02:34 AM

Ariel,
The award concept I was thinking of was concerning a Daghestani shashka that had an oval with serrated trim and was said to be a sort of tribal award. Weren't the other awards you note used on Russian shashkas and more as military honors?
I tend to agree with your observation that this is likely a Persian shamshir blade. Is there any key notes that would help distinguish a shashka such as this as Chechen vs. Daghestani by hilt characteristics? I know that the decorated niello and embossed hilts are said to be distinguished by some variation in the vegetal decor and depth of relief etc.
Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 6th December 2004, 04:17 PM

By the way, is it really wootz? I understand that the appearance of wootz is that of very small, tight and compact elongated grains. That was , at least, what I saw each and every time when I handled a real wootz sword and that is how all the examples in the Fiegel's book look like.
This one, in contrast, looks like longish, loose and haphazard threads. I would vote for Shams rather than Wootz.
Metallurgists, correct me!

RSWORD · 7th December 2004, 08:24 PM

Gentleman:

Thank you for the feedback thusfar. The teardrop decoration on the handle is inlayed with silver. I do not know if this is simply a decorative affectation or due to the precious metal, a sign of rank or symbol status. The combination of a wootz blade and silver inlay on the handle would make one think it was owned by someone that could afford those qualities.

Ariel,

It is definitely wootz. Sham is a terminology to describe a type of wootz. Wootz patterns come in a wide variety. Most authors on the subject divide wootz into no less than 4 or 5 categories based on pattern. Wootz that is termed sham typically has the long flowing grain with little contrast. Typically, Syrian or Turkish blades often feature this style and are termed sham. This blade has a bit more activity overall and has a very good color contrast so I would probably not label it as Sham.

ariel · 7th December 2004, 10:10 PM

My understanding is that the term "wootz" (or "ukku") refers strictly to crystalline damascus, whereas "shams" is a variety of the mechanical damascus. These are two totally different animals.
By the way, "shams" (not "sham") has nothing to do with "sham" as "fake" ot "imitation". Shams means Syrian.

Jeff D · 7th December 2004, 11:01 PM

As collectors we have considered sham a type of wootz. It is not a mechanical pattern. However Verhoeven, while analysing Zschokkes blades determined that his blade number 8, which has the sham pattern, is hypoeutectoid and therefore not capable of forming Fe3C particles which give true wootz its patterns. Sham therefore is not a "true wootz" but is made from superfical bands of ferrite in a pearlite matrix. I will leave it to the chemical engineers to explain the rest as I am not qualified.

Jeff

P.S. the pattern shown on this great piece does appear to be sham.

RSWORD · 8th December 2004, 02:37 AM

It is definately difficult to try and classify wootz as there are a lot of opinions on how to classify. If you look at Manfred Sachse book "Damascus Steel" he breaks wootz down into 5 categories:
1) Stripy damask or Sham
2) Water damask
3) Wavy damask
4) chequered mottle (network) damask
5) Ladder (vertebrae) damask

If you look at the examples of wootz posted on this(p. 72 in the book), my example is much closer to Water damask than Sham based on Sachse classification.

6th December 2004, 02:06 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I'd like to see the close-up of the handle, but I am willing to bet it is not an award. The awards worn on the sword handle are either St. Anna IV degree or St. George and neither has the configuration seen here. This one, looking like a comma, was a reasonably frequent decorative stud (or a between-studs gee-gaw) seen on either Circassian or, more often, Chechen shashkas. The blade is obviously Persian , taken from a Shamshir, and I would vote for the Chechen origin of the weapon. Nice one... Pity the scabbard did not survive...

6th December 2004, 02:34 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Ariel, The award concept I was thinking of was concerning a Daghestani shashka that had an oval with serrated trim and was said to be a sort of tribal award. Weren't the other awards you note used on Russian shashkas and more as military honors? I tend to agree with your observation that this is likely a Persian shamshir blade. Is there any key notes that would help distinguish a shashka such as this as Chechen vs. Daghestani by hilt characteristics? I know that the decorated niello and embossed hilts are said to be distinguished by some variation in the vegetal decor and depth of relief etc. Best regards, Jim

6th December 2004, 04:17 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	By the way, is it really wootz? I understand that the appearance of wootz is that of very small, tight and compact elongated grains. That was , at least, what I saw each and every time when I handled a real wootz sword and that is how all the examples in the Fiegel's book look like. This one, in contrast, looks like longish, loose and haphazard threads. I would vote for Shams rather than Wootz. Metallurgists, correct me!

7th December 2004, 08:24 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Gentleman: Thank you for the feedback thusfar. The teardrop decoration on the handle is inlayed with silver. I do not know if this is simply a decorative affectation or due to the precious metal, a sign of rank or symbol status. The combination of a wootz blade and silver inlay on the handle would make one think it was owned by someone that could afford those qualities. Ariel, It is definitely wootz. Sham is a terminology to describe a type of wootz. Wootz patterns come in a wide variety. Most authors on the subject divide wootz into no less than 4 or 5 categories based on pattern. Wootz that is termed sham typically has the long flowing grain with little contrast. Typically, Syrian or Turkish blades often feature this style and are termed sham. This blade has a bit more activity overall and has a very good color contrast so I would probably not label it as Sham.

7th December 2004, 10:10 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My understanding is that the term "wootz" (or "ukku") refers strictly to crystalline damascus, whereas "shams" is a variety of the mechanical damascus. These are two totally different animals. By the way, "shams" (not "sham") has nothing to do with "sham" as "fake" ot "imitation". Shams means Syrian.

7th December 2004, 11:01 PM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	As collectors we have considered sham a type of wootz. It is not a mechanical pattern. However Verhoeven, while analysing Zschokkes blades determined that his blade number 8, which has the sham pattern, is hypoeutectoid and therefore not capable of forming Fe3C particles which give true wootz its patterns. Sham therefore is not a "true wootz" but is made from superfical bands of ferrite in a pearlite matrix. I will leave it to the chemical engineers to explain the rest as I am not qualified. Jeff P.S. the pattern shown on this great piece does appear to be sham.

8th December 2004, 02:37 AM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	It is definately difficult to try and classify wootz as there are a lot of opinions on how to classify. If you look at Manfred Sachse book "Damascus Steel" he breaks wootz down into 5 categories: 1) Stripy damask or Sham 2) Water damask 3) Wavy damask 4) chequered mottle (network) damask 5) Ladder (vertebrae) damask If you look at the examples of wootz posted on this(p. 72 in the book), my example is much closer to Water damask than Sham based on Sachse classification.