Indo persian ? Arabic curved 'working' knife

Jim McDougall · 15th February 2007, 05:29 AM

In an interesting entry in Van Zonneveld ("Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, Leiden, 2001) a weapon similar to these is shown as a 'lawa ayam' and used in Sumatra and Java (p.82).

It is noted here that these were used in a stabbing upward fashion, and causing atrocious injuries, suggesting that a ripping type movement was implemented with the extremely curved blade.

Not a pleasant thought, but thought this might respond to the possible manner of use.

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2007, 09:55 AM

Well done Jim, could you, or anyone else who have the book, show us a picture of the knife?

Does the dagger you refer to have a mid rib, is it pointed, and does it have the same curve as the one Katana shows?

The half pommel on Katana’s dagger seems to be turning the wrong way, unless it was meant for support of the back of the hand when used in an upward cut. What bothers me a bit is the missing point on Katana’s dagger, as it would need to be pointed, should it be used as you describe. Of the two shown in post #4, I think only the one to the right could be used for an upward cut, as the one to the left seems to be too curved.

Robert · 15th February 2007, 01:57 PM

To me because of the way this knife is designed (with a rounded tip) the only way that I could see it being used as a weapon would be to sneak up behind someone slip it around the neck and with one quick pull......Ouch!!

Were any knives designed for this particular purpose?

Robert

katana · 15th February 2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

To me because of the way this knife is designed (with a rounded tip) the only way that I could see it being used as a weapon would be to sneak up behind someone slip it around the neck and with one quick pull......Ouch!!

Robert

I am inclined to agree.......perhaps the rounded tip and the unsharped outer edge allow the left hand to apply further pressure or control once the blade is against the throat of the victim

Or perhaps an animal slaughter knife..........or both

Tim Simmons · 15th February 2007, 05:14 PM

An air/sea rescue knife

now that is just being silly

a knife for sacrifice sounds quite possible. Perhaps the basis of the late Victorian and modern day fantasists occult knife. Burton got a frisson from this sort of thing. I believe his wife burnt a lot of his stuff on his demise.

VANDOO · 15th February 2007, 05:45 PM

THIS DESIGN WOULD WORK WELL FOR CUTTING THRU REIGNS OR HARNESS ON RIDING ANIMALS OR ROPES, ECT. IT COULD FUNCTION FOR CUTTING A THROAT BUT SO CAN MORE COMMON SHAPED BLADES WITH MUCH LESS CURVE AND THEY COULD ALSO SERVE MUCH BETTER IN A FIGHT. THEY WOULD WORK WELL TO HOOK INTO SOMEONE AND THE MORE THEY PULLED AWAY THE DEEPER IT WOULD CUT SO YOU COULD PULL THEM TOWARD ANOTHER WEAPON. I USED TO KNOW A FELLOW WHO CARRIED A KNIFE KIND OF CURVED LIKE A CARPET KNIFE ,HE REFERED TO IT AS HIS "COME HITHER KNIFE" SAYING IF THEY TRYED TO RUN AWAY IT WOULD HOOK IN AND CUT DEEPER UNTIL THE WOULD COME HITHER.

JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT BUT IT PROBABLY HAD SOME SPECIAL REASON OR MEANING TO THE GROUP CARRIENG THEM UNKNOWN TO ME AND HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW THE BLADE WOULD FUNCTION IN USE.

A. G. Maisey · 15th February 2007, 09:47 PM

I've looked at this knife a lot of times since its been posted.

The blade geometry makes it far from ideal as a blade designed to cut cleanly and deeply through flesh. The central spine has the effect of strengthening a blade at the expense of reducing its ability to cut cleanly and deeply, and to hold an edge; this is caused by the angle formed by the sides of the blade as they decline to the cutting edge.

Look at the other extreme of blade geometry in an old fashioned straight razor:- the blade is deeply hollow ground giving an exceptionally narrow angle to the blade sides as they decline to the cutting edge.

I've owned several Indian banks over the years, and handled many more. All that I have handled have been smallish, neat knives, and all had blade geometry that provided a decline to the cutting edge from the blade back. In other words, a blade that would take and hold a fine edge.

I have owned and handled a considerable number of lawi ayam of various designs, sizes and origins. They have ranged from a knife only about 2.5 inches long with a single edge, to serious daggers with two cutting edges and a length of about 9 inches. All have had very deeply curved blades.

The knife currently under discussion looks nothing like any bank I have ever seen, and does not resemble in the slightest degree a lawi ayam.

Having said that, I also must say that I do not have the vaguest idea what it might be. However, when we come across something that has not been illustrated somewhere it is quite possible that we may be looking at an individual piece that somebody has had made for a specific purpose. I have seen things such as this in Indonesia, also in Australia, and when I was doing custom knife work I accepted several orders for individual designs that in 100 years time will definitely cause somebody who encounters them to ask exactly what they were for.
The more I look at this knife, and always assuming that we are looking at its original form, the more I feel that we are looking at a tool. Possibly a market place tool where the weapon style handle would give a bit of pizzazz to the person using it. Something to cut candy? Something to cut ice? Something to cut melons?

15th February 2007, 05:29 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	In an interesting entry in Van Zonneveld ("Traditional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago, Leiden, 2001) a weapon similar to these is shown as a 'lawa ayam' and used in Sumatra and Java (p.82). It is noted here that these were used in a stabbing upward fashion, and causing atrocious injuries, suggesting that a ripping type movement was implemented with the extremely curved blade. Not a pleasant thought, but thought this might respond to the possible manner of use. Best regards, Jim

15th February 2007, 09:55 AM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Well done Jim, could you, or anyone else who have the book, show us a picture of the knife? Does the dagger you refer to have a mid rib, is it pointed, and does it have the same curve as the one Katana shows? The half pommel on Katana’s dagger seems to be turning the wrong way, unless it was meant for support of the back of the hand when used in an upward cut. What bothers me a bit is the missing point on Katana’s dagger, as it would need to be pointed, should it be used as you describe. Of the two shown in post #4, I think only the one to the right could be used for an upward cut, as the one to the left seems to be too curved.

15th February 2007, 01:57 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	To me because of the way this knife is designed (with a rounded tip) the only way that I could see it being used as a weapon would be to sneak up behind someone slip it around the neck and with one quick pull......Ouch!! Were any knives designed for this particular purpose? Robert

15th February 2007, 05:14 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	An air/sea rescue knife now that is just being silly a knife for sacrifice sounds quite possible. Perhaps the basis of the late Victorian and modern day fantasists occult knife. Burton got a frisson from this sort of thing. I believe his wife burnt a lot of his stuff on his demise.

15th February 2007, 05:45 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS DESIGN WOULD WORK WELL FOR CUTTING THRU REIGNS OR HARNESS ON RIDING ANIMALS OR ROPES, ECT. IT COULD FUNCTION FOR CUTTING A THROAT BUT SO CAN MORE COMMON SHAPED BLADES WITH MUCH LESS CURVE AND THEY COULD ALSO SERVE MUCH BETTER IN A FIGHT. THEY WOULD WORK WELL TO HOOK INTO SOMEONE AND THE MORE THEY PULLED AWAY THE DEEPER IT WOULD CUT SO YOU COULD PULL THEM TOWARD ANOTHER WEAPON. I USED TO KNOW A FELLOW WHO CARRIED A KNIFE KIND OF CURVED LIKE A CARPET KNIFE ,HE REFERED TO IT AS HIS "COME HITHER KNIFE" SAYING IF THEY TRYED TO RUN AWAY IT WOULD HOOK IN AND CUT DEEPER UNTIL THE WOULD COME HITHER. JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT BUT IT PROBABLY HAD SOME SPECIAL REASON OR MEANING TO THE GROUP CARRIENG THEM UNKNOWN TO ME AND HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW THE BLADE WOULD FUNCTION IN USE.

15th February 2007, 09:47 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I've looked at this knife a lot of times since its been posted. The blade geometry makes it far from ideal as a blade designed to cut cleanly and deeply through flesh. The central spine has the effect of strengthening a blade at the expense of reducing its ability to cut cleanly and deeply, and to hold an edge; this is caused by the angle formed by the sides of the blade as they decline to the cutting edge. Look at the other extreme of blade geometry in an old fashioned straight razor:- the blade is deeply hollow ground giving an exceptionally narrow angle to the blade sides as they decline to the cutting edge. I've owned several Indian banks over the years, and handled many more. All that I have handled have been smallish, neat knives, and all had blade geometry that provided a decline to the cutting edge from the blade back. In other words, a blade that would take and hold a fine edge. I have owned and handled a considerable number of lawi ayam of various designs, sizes and origins. They have ranged from a knife only about 2.5 inches long with a single edge, to serious daggers with two cutting edges and a length of about 9 inches. All have had very deeply curved blades. The knife currently under discussion looks nothing like any bank I have ever seen, and does not resemble in the slightest degree a lawi ayam. Having said that, I also must say that I do not have the vaguest idea what it might be. However, when we come across something that has not been illustrated somewhere it is quite possible that we may be looking at an individual piece that somebody has had made for a specific purpose. I have seen things such as this in Indonesia, also in Australia, and when I was doing custom knife work I accepted several orders for individual designs that in 100 years time will definitely cause somebody who encounters them to ask exactly what they were for. The more I look at this knife, and always assuming that we are looking at its original form, the more I feel that we are looking at a tool. Possibly a market place tool where the weapon style handle would give a bit of pizzazz to the person using it. Something to cut candy? Something to cut ice? Something to cut melons?