Help with talismanic inscriptions?

Tim Simmons · 1st February 2007, 07:16 PM

Interesting points Bill. I am inclined to feel that we can look at these not as an absolute alien. We do have some well known facts about the people thier religion and lives. I am dreaming too, but a local version linked to a pan Islamic influence is a viable area to investigate. Looking for a source is possibly a first step. Scholars managed to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and much middle American writing systems. If other members had more to compere might be helpful.

Bill M · 2nd February 2007, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Interesting points Bill. I am inclined to feel that we can look at these not as an absolute alien. We do have some well known facts about the people thier religion and lives. I am dreaming too, but a local version linked to a pan Islamic influence is a viable area to investigate. Looking for a source is possibly a first step. Scholars managed to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and much middle American writing systems. If other members had more to compere might be helpful.

Hi Tim,

I believe the hieroglyphics were basically untranslateable until someone discovered the Rosetta stone that had the royal and heavenly (Egyptian) languages along with the same information in classical Greek.

Even then it took about 20 years, after it was discovered, (early 1800s) for a translation to be availaible. Comparative translation of this artifact originally created in about 200 bc did then lead to the understanding of previously untranslatable heiroglyphic texts. The text of the Rosetta Stone is a decree from Ptolemy V, describing the repealing of various taxes and instructions to erect statues in temples.

I don't necessarily see a correlation here. Best I can tell the early animistic cultures, whether Philippines or elsewhere had no written language.

I would like to belive that I coulld look at these animistic cultures with a better understanding, but I have friends who have been there and studied primitive cultures and they have told me there is an alien-ness that they never felt they ever understood.

Even in the works of Margaret Mead, there is confusion.

Still we can glean information from their works and hopefully enjoy a glimmer of understanding. We do the best we can. For now, I can see agreement with every interpretation in this thread on Michael's exceptional kris. All have validity.

Personally it looks like a protective enclosure focusing some energy down the blade.

VVV · 2nd February 2007, 10:02 AM

Bill,

Thanks for your interesting posts.
One thing that puzzles me is the Negrito connection?
As far as I understand the "Moros" are of Malay-Indonesian origin and not related to the original "Negritos" living before them on the islands?
Another influence, especially important related to Kris culture and Folk Islam, is the pre-Islamic Hindu beliefs in this area.

Also there exist some early documentation to be found on the beliefs in the area from the time before this Kris was produced.

On the two avenues it's a classical clash of two schools (f.i. within your field of comparative religion);
- all symbols are universal (Eliade, Jung), and
- all symbols are specific to the local culture (Evans-Pritchard, Geertz).
As usual with two extremes "the truth" is often found somewhere inbetween.

I really enjoyed your Martian example but if the Martian had read about the earthlings before his field work probably he had drawn less drastic conclusions?

I fully agree with you on:

"Still we can glean information from their works and hopefully enjoy a glimmer of understanding."

That's exactly the purpose of this thread. We can probably never find out for sure the exact meaning of this motif. But together maybe we can find some possible explanations of it?
The alternative is to dismiss it as all guess work, which in a way it of course is. But that doesn't increase the possibility of understanding on how to get closer to some of the more probable meanings of this riddle.

Michael

Tim Simmons · 2nd February 2007, 06:35 PM

We also know that the people in question are indeed Muslims and as one of the worlds major faiths comes with its own iconography. Look at the array of styles of Christian crosses from region to region, all mean the same thing. Could the images on these two weapons be the same scenario? We know religious mottoes and talisman are used as protective and good fortune symbols. We could want or have a need to dig too deep and expect or hope for a strange occult outcome when it might be quite straight forward, perhaps even obvious once one is attuned?

Somebody must have another Islamic weapon with something similar on it?

katana · 2nd February 2007, 08:53 PM

This thread is getting better and better..... Bill you 'martian' analogy is 'spot on' ...sometimes symbolism can be 'over anaylsised'. And you are correct the 'Rosetta' stone finally unlocked the hieroglyphics of Ancient Egypt. Tim interesting input and VVV thankyou for your comments. Keep up the good work

ibeam · 25th February 2007, 06:47 PM

Hello VVV,
Can you share some other examples of Moro swords from your collection that have talismanic inscriptions on their blades. Maybe there are some that maybe be related and may bring some more discussion.
Since talismanic beliefs tend to be more protective by nature, should these inscription also be seen on other Moro battle attire like Armors, helmets and shields as well??

Dajak · 25th February 2007, 07:16 PM

The same geometric signs can be seen on shields

Ben

VVV · 26th February 2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibeam

Hello VVV,
Can you share some other examples of Moro swords from your collection that have talismanic inscriptions on their blades. Maybe there are some that maybe be related and may bring some more discussion.
Since talismanic beliefs tend to be more protective by nature, should these inscription also be seen on other Moro battle attire like Armors, helmets and shields as well??

Hello Jon,

I am travelling this week and will post some more examples when back home again.

Michael

25th February 2007, 07:16 PM	#7
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	The same geometric signs can be seen on shields Ben Attached Images

1st February 2007, 07:16 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	Interesting points Bill. I am inclined to feel that we can look at these not as an absolute alien. We do have some well known facts about the people thier religion and lives. I am dreaming too, but a local version linked to a pan Islamic influence is a viable area to investigate. Looking for a source is possibly a first step. Scholars managed to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and much middle American writing systems. If other members had more to compere might be helpful.

2nd February 2007, 10:02 AM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Bill, Thanks for your interesting posts. One thing that puzzles me is the Negrito connection? As far as I understand the "Moros" are of Malay-Indonesian origin and not related to the original "Negritos" living before them on the islands? Another influence, especially important related to Kris culture and Folk Islam, is the pre-Islamic Hindu beliefs in this area. Also there exist some early documentation to be found on the beliefs in the area from the time before this Kris was produced. On the two avenues it's a classical clash of two schools (f.i. within your field of comparative religion); - all symbols are universal (Eliade, Jung), and - all symbols are specific to the local culture (Evans-Pritchard, Geertz). As usual with two extremes "the truth" is often found somewhere inbetween. I really enjoyed your Martian example but if the Martian had read about the earthlings before his field work probably he had drawn less drastic conclusions? I fully agree with you on: "Still we can glean information from their works and hopefully enjoy a glimmer of understanding." That's exactly the purpose of this thread. We can probably never find out for sure the exact meaning of this motif. But together maybe we can find some possible explanations of it? The alternative is to dismiss it as all guess work, which in a way it of course is. But that doesn't increase the possibility of understanding on how to get closer to some of the more probable meanings of this riddle. Michael

2nd February 2007, 06:35 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	We also know that the people in question are indeed Muslims and as one of the worlds major faiths comes with its own iconography. Look at the array of styles of Christian crosses from region to region, all mean the same thing. Could the images on these two weapons be the same scenario? We know religious mottoes and talisman are used as protective and good fortune symbols. We could want or have a need to dig too deep and expect or hope for a strange occult outcome when it might be quite straight forward, perhaps even obvious once one is attuned? Somebody must have another Islamic weapon with something similar on it?

2nd February 2007, 08:53 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	This thread is getting better and better..... Bill you 'martian' analogy is 'spot on' ...sometimes symbolism can be 'over anaylsised'. And you are correct the 'Rosetta' stone finally unlocked the hieroglyphics of Ancient Egypt. Tim interesting input and VVV thankyou for your comments. Keep up the good work

25th February 2007, 06:47 PM	#6
ibeam Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 134	Hello VVV, Can you share some other examples of Moro swords from your collection that have talismanic inscriptions on their blades. Maybe there are some that maybe be related and may bring some more discussion. Since talismanic beliefs tend to be more protective by nature, should these inscription also be seen on other Moro battle attire like Armors, helmets and shields as well??