clunker saif?

Rick · 1st February 2007, 03:04 PM

The only thing I can add is that in my very limited exposure to these swords and comparing this one to my example of this type of sayf/nimcha ; I have never seen those projecting lugs on the quillons before .

Pukka Bundook · 1st February 2007, 03:22 PM

Thanks for reply, Rick.
I think I saw some when doing a search, that had a half-circle set-up, but not just projections.
I found the pic of yours, V. interesting!
Very similar hilt, Very different blade!
Did you find any more information re. the blade?

On mine may I ask "now what?"

is it OK to re-align the horn in the centre of the handle,?.......it looks like the original horn used was hollow, (as to be expected) and had a piece inserted, that has moved somehow.
What about the cracked/chipped end of handle, should I fix or leave alone?

And the wire-brush marks? dull it down? ?

Clean blade at all?.........w.o. removing pits of course!!

I know this is not an expensive sword, but still don't want to do the wrong thing.
Thanks,
Richard.

Rick · 1st February 2007, 03:54 PM

Hi Richard, no I haven't found any more information than that it's an old backsword blade; possibly English and possibly as old as the turn of the 18th century . That was about all I could discover about it .. so far . No one has been able to identify the mark on the blade .

As for doing any work on yours; were I you I'd just live with it for a while .

RhysMichael · 1st February 2007, 05:26 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but I do not think is is incorrect to call this a saif. The term Saif is arabian for sword and usually used with curved blade swords.( A post from Artzi pointed out that this term may have come from Aramaic as it is also used in Hebrew for a straight rapier like sword ) While these Saif or Nimcha are usually attributed to Morroco they are also appearantly found in Zanzibar ( The Zanzibar saif that are a pretty much a type of 'nimcha' have the same basic grip but have a ring on theguard.). Of Interest I have seen one example of a sword with a Nimcha handle and a blade like a toukuba. In a thread with Jim about these he once wrote "It must be remembered that the commonly used term 'nimcha'* for the multi-quilloned Moroccan sabre is actually misapplied, and as in most cases in the Dar-al-Islam is locally considered a sa'if. These Moroccan swords with complex guards were known from at least the earlier 17th century in the Maghreb (which included the Moroccan littoral as far as Algeria)and the hilts are believed to have developed from early Italian sabres via Arab trade."

While we call these Nimcha Robert Elgood in his book "Arms & Armour of Arabia" noted that the literal Arabic term Nimcha ( Nimsha) denotes a 'short sword', which really does not fit these longer swords

A zanzibar sword
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...00351/ph-0.jpg

A morrocan sword
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...01835/ph-0.jpg

Please feel free to correct me if my impressions on this are wrong

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2007, 01:45 AM

Hi Richard,
Sorry to come in on this so late, apparantly I missed it

As has been noted, this is a Moroccan sa'if , more commonly termed by collectors a 'nimcha' (thanks very much Rhys Michael for the reference

.

Actually this is a most interesting example, and as I always implore, please leave it alone unless there is active rust. These weapons were often refurbished numerous times during thier working lives, and sometimes the work of the armorers is amateurish, making it difficult to discern these from the contrived workings of devious collector/dealers. I always feel better presuming the former, and analyzing the example with the state it is in.

The blade on this, clearly heavily worked over, appears to be a 19th century military sabre blade, with these markings added by an armorer attempting to duplicate other trade blade markings. Most fascinating is that the half circle (sickle marks) aligned along the blade as motif in linear fashion is seen only on Caucasian blades of the second half 19th c. and typically attributed to Chechen manufacture. The name stamped in the blade attempts to say 'Genoa', the blades which were associated with the origins on the familiar sickle marks which of course are well known seen back to back in a single pair, not used as motif as seen here.

This may well be a tribal piece from the Maghreb, the rounded tip on the blade may suggest further into the Sahara where of course, these are seen on takoubas. It seems most likely to be a late incarnation, probably into the early 20th c. While the 'nimcha' is typically considered more of a coastal weapon, in these later times, trade routes and heightened tribal and colonial activity certainly increased the diffusion of weapons.

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 14th February 2007, 02:24 AM

Jim,
I am confused: where does the info about linear arrangement of the "eyelash " sign being in any way characteristic of Caucasian blades come from?
All similar markings on Caucasian swords I've ever seen are either single or arranged as an opposing pair. Often, they were flanked by 3 dots on each side, locally called " little bees".
This mark is called Gurda ( or Gorda), the origin of which is uncertain and takes about 10 pages in the Askhabov's book " Chechen Weapons". They range from "Gora Da", ie "the possessor of might" in memory of a legendary nameless master from Ayttkhalloi, name of an aul (village) Gordali, name of a master from Gordaloi named Gorda, a word "gura da", ie " owner of a trap" ( teeth marks) or a shout " gurda" ( " I'll show you!") with which one master once allegedly cut his opponent in half.
Likely, the influence of a similar Genoese mark was involved. Genoese colonies on the Black Sea imported blades to Circassians.
I have yet to encounter a Caucasian blade with a linear orientation of multiple Gurda marks.
I would really appreciate a reference.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2007, 03:17 AM

Hi Ariel,
The Ashkabov book is an excellent reference, and this is exactly where I saw illustrations of these blades, which I had actually seen on a Khevsur sword.
Interesting on the term 'gurda', which I have been under the impression simply is a term used to denote high quality or valued blade, and as you note the etymology is unclear.

The 'Kaldam' sword, apparantly referring generally to certain swords used by Chechens and Khevsurs, and noting the 'gurda' blades, is described in Ashkabov (p.75) and the illustration of the blade has the linear 'sickle' type half circles the length of the blade along the back. The same blade form, a straight, single edged blade with the same linear motif of these markings, is shown on p.114, as a blade from Ataghi (the example on extreme right).

While the use of these markings as motif is not addressed in the text, it does seem apparant that it did exist on this particular blade form. The Genoan marking, as you note, certainly was copied in many cases, and this did derive from those Genoan colonies. It is interesting how widely these blades were diffused by such trade.

Although it is difficult to see clearly in the illustrations, that these half circles are actually imitations of the toothed half circles, close examination as in the example I have seen did reveal that they indeed were.

Sorry for not specifying the reference. I have seen the same use of this half circle motif on at least one example of an unusual sword blade from India, and I will try to locate that reference. I think it was an auction catalog.

All the best,
Jim

BSMStar · 15th February 2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The name stamped in the blade attempts to say 'Genoa'...

Jim... You may want to consider "Seiol" (сеиол is Cyrillic isn't it).

It would seem they would have stamped "геноа" if they wanted Genoa. Just a gut feeling...

Jim McDougall · 16th February 2007, 02:35 AM

Thanks very much Ariel

! Much appreciated.

You are right Richard, this is not an Italian style hilt. It is a locally produced hilt with stylized influence believed to derive from early Italian hilts. As I had noted, the ring guards and developing complex quillon arrangements on many Italian hilts may be seen in rudimentary form in many of these sa'if hilts. The influence of these Italian hilts were diffused widely, typically via Venetian trade routes.

BSMStar,
I am not a linquist so I can only presume you are right that this word is not Cyrillic. However, in transcribing words or inscriptions on trade blades or native blades, spelling and letter form are typically anything but correct.
This can often be seen for example on even Solingen blades which sought to duplicate mottos or makers names from other countries. The spellings, letter forms etc. are often incorrect, and as native makers copied from the trade blades, the digression became even more acute.
My suggestion was that this interpretation on this blade simply attempted to mimic the 'Genoa' often seen on certain blades.

All best regards,
Jim

1st February 2007, 03:04 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	The only thing I can add is that in my very limited exposure to these swords and comparing this one to my example of this type of sayf/nimcha ; I have never seen those projecting lugs on the quillons before . Last edited by Rick; 1st February 2007 at 08:59 PM.

1st February 2007, 05:26 PM	#4
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Correct me if I am wrong but I do not think is is incorrect to call this a saif. The term Saif is arabian for sword and usually used with curved blade swords.( A post from Artzi pointed out that this term may have come from Aramaic as it is also used in Hebrew for a straight rapier like sword ) While these Saif or Nimcha are usually attributed to Morroco they are also appearantly found in Zanzibar ( The Zanzibar saif that are a pretty much a type of 'nimcha' have the same basic grip but have a ring on theguard.). Of Interest I have seen one example of a sword with a Nimcha handle and a blade like a toukuba. In a thread with Jim about these he once wrote "It must be remembered that the commonly used term 'nimcha'* for the multi-quilloned Moroccan sabre is actually misapplied, and as in most cases in the Dar-al-Islam is locally considered a sa'if. These Moroccan swords with complex guards were known from at least the earlier 17th century in the Maghreb (which included the Moroccan littoral as far as Algeria)and the hilts are believed to have developed from early Italian sabres via Arab trade." While we call these Nimcha Robert Elgood in his book "Arms & Armour of Arabia" noted that the literal Arabic term Nimcha ( Nimsha) denotes a 'short sword', which really does not fit these longer swords A zanzibar sword http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...00351/ph-0.jpg A morrocan sword http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...01835/ph-0.jpg Please feel free to correct me if my impressions on this are wrong Last edited by RhysMichael; 1st February 2007 at 05:36 PM.

14th February 2007, 01:45 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Richard, Sorry to come in on this so late, apparantly I missed it As has been noted, this is a Moroccan sa'if , more commonly termed by collectors a 'nimcha' (thanks very much Rhys Michael for the reference. Actually this is a most interesting example, and as I always implore, please leave it alone unless there is active rust. These weapons were often refurbished numerous times during thier working lives, and sometimes the work of the armorers is amateurish, making it difficult to discern these from the contrived workings of devious collector/dealers. I always feel better presuming the former, and analyzing the example with the state it is in. The blade on this, clearly heavily worked over, appears to be a 19th century military sabre blade, with these markings added by an armorer attempting to duplicate other trade blade markings. Most fascinating is that the half circle (sickle marks) aligned along the blade as motif in linear fashion is seen only on Caucasian blades of the second half 19th c. and typically attributed to Chechen manufacture. The name stamped in the blade attempts to say 'Genoa', the blades which were associated with the origins on the familiar sickle marks which of course are well known seen back to back in a single pair, not used as motif as seen here. This may well be a tribal piece from the Maghreb, the rounded tip on the blade may suggest further into the Sahara where of course, these are seen on takoubas. It seems most likely to be a late incarnation, probably into the early 20th c. While the 'nimcha' is typically considered more of a coastal weapon, in these later times, trade routes and heightened tribal and colonial activity certainly increased the diffusion of weapons. All the best, Jim

1st February 2007, 03:22 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thanks for reply, Rick. I think I saw some when doing a search, that had a half-circle set-up, but not just projections. I found the pic of yours, V. interesting! Very similar hilt, Very different blade! Did you find any more information re. the blade? On mine may I ask "now what?" is it OK to re-align the horn in the centre of the handle,?.......it looks like the original horn used was hollow, (as to be expected) and had a piece inserted, that has moved somehow. What about the cracked/chipped end of handle, should I fix or leave alone? And the wire-brush marks? dull it down? ? Clean blade at all?.........w.o. removing pits of course!! I know this is not an expensive sword, but still don't want to do the wrong thing. Thanks, Richard.

1st February 2007, 03:54 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Richard, no I haven't found any more information than that it's an old backsword blade; possibly English and possibly as old as the turn of the 18th century . That was about all I could discover about it .. so far . No one has been able to identify the mark on the blade . As for doing any work on yours; were I you I'd just live with it for a while .

14th February 2007, 02:24 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, I am confused: where does the info about linear arrangement of the "eyelash " sign being in any way characteristic of Caucasian blades come from? All similar markings on Caucasian swords I've ever seen are either single or arranged as an opposing pair. Often, they were flanked by 3 dots on each side, locally called " little bees". This mark is called Gurda ( or Gorda), the origin of which is uncertain and takes about 10 pages in the Askhabov's book " Chechen Weapons". They range from "Gora Da", ie "the possessor of might" in memory of a legendary nameless master from Ayttkhalloi, name of an aul (village) Gordali, name of a master from Gordaloi named Gorda, a word "gura da", ie " owner of a trap" ( teeth marks) or a shout " gurda" ( " I'll show you!") with which one master once allegedly cut his opponent in half. Likely, the influence of a similar Genoese mark was involved. Genoese colonies on the Black Sea imported blades to Circassians. I have yet to encounter a Caucasian blade with a linear orientation of multiple Gurda marks. I would really appreciate a reference.

14th February 2007, 03:17 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Hi Ariel, The Ashkabov book is an excellent reference, and this is exactly where I saw illustrations of these blades, which I had actually seen on a Khevsur sword. Interesting on the term 'gurda', which I have been under the impression simply is a term used to denote high quality or valued blade, and as you note the etymology is unclear. The 'Kaldam' sword, apparantly referring generally to certain swords used by Chechens and Khevsurs, and noting the 'gurda' blades, is described in Ashkabov (p.75) and the illustration of the blade has the linear 'sickle' type half circles the length of the blade along the back. The same blade form, a straight, single edged blade with the same linear motif of these markings, is shown on p.114, as a blade from Ataghi (the example on extreme right). While the use of these markings as motif is not addressed in the text, it does seem apparant that it did exist on this particular blade form. The Genoan marking, as you note, certainly was copied in many cases, and this did derive from those Genoan colonies. It is interesting how widely these blades were diffused by such trade. Although it is difficult to see clearly in the illustrations, that these half circles are actually imitations of the toothed half circles, close examination as in the example I have seen did reveal that they indeed were. Sorry for not specifying the reference. I have seen the same use of this half circle motif on at least one example of an unusual sword blade from India, and I will try to locate that reference. I think it was an auction catalog. All the best, Jim

16th February 2007, 02:35 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Thanks very much Ariel ! Much appreciated. You are right Richard, this is not an Italian style hilt. It is a locally produced hilt with stylized influence believed to derive from early Italian hilts. As I had noted, the ring guards and developing complex quillon arrangements on many Italian hilts may be seen in rudimentary form in many of these sa'if hilts. The influence of these Italian hilts were diffused widely, typically via Venetian trade routes. BSMStar, I am not a linquist so I can only presume you are right that this word is not Cyrillic. However, in transcribing words or inscriptions on trade blades or native blades, spelling and letter form are typically anything but correct. This can often be seen for example on even Solingen blades which sought to duplicate mottos or makers names from other countries. The spellings, letter forms etc. are often incorrect, and as native makers copied from the trade blades, the digression became even more acute. My suggestion was that this interpretation on this blade simply attempted to mimic the 'Genoa' often seen on certain blades. All best regards, Jim