Dahb Thai, Japanese swords and hybrids

[Mark]

Thank you again for even more precious insight. I need to study these photos carefully, as I believe I have been mis-identifying some of my dahb.

I do see all the photos now. It must have been some small problem with my internet connection.

I came across an interesting piece of information while back about dha/dahb blades that "travel" far from where they were made, which may explain the northern style blade on a southern dahb. Sylvia Fraser-Lu, in Burmese Crafts, Past & Present (1994) (ISBN 0-19-588608-9) says:

In the early twentieth century, Mong-Kung and Kehsi in the Southern Shan States produced blades which enjoyed a wide reputation throughout Burma. Many were exported to Thailand under the trade name of 'ham-ngai,' after the traders who bought the blades wholesale and fitted them with handles." P. 148

This refers to early 20th century blade trade, but I see no reason why it would not have been going on earlier. As you know, the "Shan" of Burma are in fact Tai, the "Shan States" of Burma being right next to Lanna. At many times they were in fact unified in whole or in part.

Another possible explanation could be found in the practice of deporting large groups of people, particularly skilled craftsmen, from conquered areas back to the conquerer's heart-land. In this case, the areas of Lanna and the adjacent Shan States changed hands several times between the Burmese and the Thai over the centuries, and it is not hard to believe that swordsmiths from Lanna (or the Shan States of Burma), were deported to the southern parts of the country.

How much of the ancient Thai swordmaking tradition (in the sense of history) is preserved? Are there still families of swordsmiths in these areas with a family history or tradition that would explain the movement and development of styles? I know such families still work in Aranyik - are there similar, living, swordmaking centers in for example Pisanulok or Lanna?

[PUFF]

Lanna Dahbs, in their scabbards.


Smiths migration 's, indeed, interesting. In previous meeting ago, we learned that there are steel tools (and weapons) making around Ayuthaya city center. During the 2nd sack of Ayuthaya, many smiths were ported to Burmese 's city. And some were killed. In the early Rattanakosin, during king Rama 2nd era, there were immigration of Lao 's smiths (gold, silver and steel). They settled down in the Ayuthaya area (which was an old city by then ). In the early of 20th cent., their steel products were dominant in the market as Aranyik 's product. In fact, Aranyik 's the name of a market/hub village where these people sold their products, the manufactoring place is PaiNong village . Some were sold in Bangkok many were exported as far as Lao and Vietnam (some of us found them during search for Lao or Vietnam 's local sword). And, by now, Aranyik 's Lao sword design turned to be recognized as Dahb Thai.

Similar thing happened in Burman side, Ayuthaya (Yodia, in Burmese term) smiths made long hilt Dha which, today, can be found around Mandalay.

Lanna and southern Lanna smiths has a different story. As far as I know, Chiang Mai do not has its own sword making community (sounds odd, I need to do more research in this are). Many Dha, Dahb were imported from nearby cities, used to be Tai Shan cities (on Burman side) and LamPang (~100 miles south of ChiangMai). Not long ago, just after WWII, LamPang guilds got a huge order of Dahb Thai from Bangkok, which actually is Aranyik (Lao) style. Today, they still making both traditional Lanna and Aranyik 's Dahb Thai sword. There 's another sword making community in Utaradit, near an infamouse Nam-Pi iron ore deposite. But I think they got "infected" by Aranyik style by now.

Indeed, there were some smiths in the rural area which were not captured during the Ayuthaya 's 2nd sack. But they do not make weapons as a primary job. And, since king Rama 3rd, there were immigration of the Chinese. They come with chinese technique and go into the business. Scattered Siamese smiths gave up their business and ,so far, I could not find a single Siamese sword maker in my area.

[RhysMichael]

A great discussion and I am learning a great deal as always from reading these. I would love to actually come to one of the lectures oneday. Thank you for sharing

Can you tell me more about this sword



It is in with dha but if not for that I would have called it a parang with a naga hilt. I had not seen one with a guard before but otherwise it looks Indonesian not Thai to me.

And this one seems to resemble hairpin folding seen on swords from parts of China and Tibet

[PUFF]

I do agree with you that the piece shouldn't be classified as Dahb. But it 's not unique to the island part. Parang style weapons are also exist in mainland Malaya peninsular too. This one is a good example



The forge-weld blade 's made in wakisashi profile (3rd blade from top of this rack). It 's made with keris/badik technique. There is a document that in the 19th cent., similar blades were made and the Siamese king sent "keris-patterned Japanese sword" out as a diplomatic item.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by PUFF

I do agree with you that the piece shouldn't be classified as Dahb. But it 's not unique to the island part. Parang style weapons are also exist in mainland Malaya peninsular too. This one is a good example


The forge-weld blade 's made in wakisashi profile (3rd blade from top of this rack). It 's made with keris/badik technique. There is a document that in the 19th cent., similar blades were made and the Siamese king sent "keris-patterned Japanese sword" out as a diplomatic item.

I knew there were Thai keris so it makes sense there are Thai parang type weapons I just never had seen or even considered it myself. Do you know of many other thai swords with the naga style hilt ?

As to the forge welding, I love the many varied styles of forge welding. I would like to see more of the "keris patterned" Thai made swords and see if they have more of a pamor look or more of the hairpin folding look of these.

Again Thanks

[Mark]

I'll try and get a photo of the pattern-welded Thai "katana" at the Smithsonian. Its a beautiful sword.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Mark

I'll try and get a photo of the pattern-welded Thai "katana" at the Smithsonian. Its a beautiful sword.

If you have time that would be great, thanks