Dahb Thai, Japanese swords and hybrids

[DhaDha]

Can't thank you enough...

[PUFF]

Hi, Mark, all pics looks ok for me. Please let me know which one's not working and I will repost it.

Your first question 's about similarity between Dahb Utaradit and one from early Rattanakosin era. Geographically, Utaradit and Pisanulok (BLUE) are major cities southern of Lanna (GREEN). The cities were self-govern under Siamese capitol (RED) 's power in both Ayuthaya and Rattanakosin periods. The sword labeled as Dahb from Rattanakosin era (the top one) shared blade similarity with ones from late Ayuthaya era. It 's hypothesized that they have same craftsmanship (same smith guild or linage). Although ones from southern area of Lanna (Utaradit-Pisanulok) have similar art (decoration, style, tip style) but they are different in terms of profile and balance. Its blade profile 's somewhat influenced by Lanna 's blade, narrow "waist", highly-taper-spine. And we agree to put such Dahb in another catagory than Lanna, Ayuthaya or Rattanakosin, even the blades are from late Ayuthaya-early Rattanakosin era.

[PUFF]

The executioner 's Dahb 's the one labeled as Rattanakosin period's.


It 's single-handed Dahb with CG toward the tip (aka, COP moved to about 1/3 from the tip instead of 1-2 inches as most of Dahbs in the same period). It 's overall weight 's just a little heavier than regular ones. The dahb 's obtained from executioner 's family and there are references that the Dahb did the job.





I rated the following pics as violence ones, please click the links to view them.
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3006/5fa1.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/chomjan/04a.jpg

[PUFF]

Regarding to the southern Dahbs, they shared a similar fate as Dahbs from southern area of Lanna. Since Ayuthaya era, the region was under Siamese power for some period, they were self-rule for some period and they were fully governed by Siamese governer for some period. So, their craftsmanship was mixed up with Siamese's. Althoug the example at top of the rack do has Siamese profile with Lanna style hilt. But its detail 's a lot different from typical Lanna Dhabs. The hilt 's cast of brass with persian-style detail. And we do have another identical Dahb with a good reference that it was belong to a southern noble family.
Mark, you are very good in Dha ID. Even from a poor taken pic, you can ID it right. The third one also very Lanna'ish to me. The hilt was carved of wood in oval profile (instead of round profile as typical ones), very similar pattern to the silver one from Nan province (in Lanna area). Blade profile, decorative and scabbard remind me a Lanna blade. But the onwer do has good reference that the blade 's obtained from southern part of Thailand. And it was there for some good time. It 's possible that the blade was made to order, or brought to the area by "northern" folk.

[Andrew]

Once again, many thanks for sharing this information with us, Puff.

[Tim Simmons]

Very interesting and a little alarming. These pictures bring me back to this sword and why it was dismissed as no more than a snake killer . Yes it is clearly latter in the 20th century but still a real weapon. I show it next to one that will meet with your approval. The more modern one is equally well tempered and although heavier can flex but not like the old one.

[Mark]

Thank you again for even more precious insight. I need to study these photos carefully, as I believe I have been mis-identifying some of my dahb.

I do see all the photos now. It must have been some small problem with my internet connection.

I came across an interesting piece of information while back about dha/dahb blades that "travel" far from where they were made, which may explain the northern style blade on a southern dahb. Sylvia Fraser-Lu, in Burmese Crafts, Past & Present (1994) (ISBN 0-19-588608-9) says:

In the early twentieth century, Mong-Kung and Kehsi in the Southern Shan States produced blades which enjoyed a wide reputation throughout Burma. Many were exported to Thailand under the trade name of 'ham-ngai,' after the traders who bought the blades wholesale and fitted them with handles." P. 148

This refers to early 20th century blade trade, but I see no reason why it would not have been going on earlier. As you know, the "Shan" of Burma are in fact Tai, the "Shan States" of Burma being right next to Lanna. At many times they were in fact unified in whole or in part.

Another possible explanation could be found in the practice of deporting large groups of people, particularly skilled craftsmen, from conquered areas back to the conquerer's heart-land. In this case, the areas of Lanna and the adjacent Shan States changed hands several times between the Burmese and the Thai over the centuries, and it is not hard to believe that swordsmiths from Lanna (or the Shan States of Burma), were deported to the southern parts of the country.

How much of the ancient Thai swordmaking tradition (in the sense of history) is preserved? Are there still families of swordsmiths in these areas with a family history or tradition that would explain the movement and development of styles? I know such families still work in Aranyik - are there similar, living, swordmaking centers in for example Pisanulok or Lanna?