Help with talismanic inscriptions?

katana · 30th January 2007, 08:15 PM

I appreciate that sometimes I have some 'wacky' ideas....but if we all thought the same way....progress in knowledge would be greatly slowed. (well that's my excuse anyway

) but I'd like to throw this idea into the discussion.

The phallic symbolism of the sword has been shown to be relevant to many cultures and time periods.....
Could it be that the 'clouds' indeed symbolises 'heaven' , the repetative side motif symbolising 'life' (if it is a form of flora ) but, shaped in a phallic design (the 'bringer' of life? Male virility?). The 'rising' symbols perhaps representative of male, female (human seed? re-incarnated souls?). The Sword itself, is the 'bringer' of death, in combination with the 'life' symbolism, we end up with a depiction of the cycle of life........birth (re-birth?) , growth and death.

.........and afterall 'The pen_is mightier than the sword'...

Interesting thread, iconography, symbolism etc is an important part in the study of ethnographic weaponary. If we could 'crack' the lost meanings ...we would get 'more of a feel' of how these items were viewed through the 'eyes' of their original owners.

Tim Simmons · 30th January 2007, 08:29 PM

The Mosque as an image is not unknown on carpets, sorry to labour this aspect but they do give a wonderful resource. I could see a column of people prone at prayer which would be very unorthodox and a fantastic example of a PI twist to an Islamic motif. The image carried on a blade as this is the tropics, sheep are not kept so the carpet tradition and artistic expession does not exist in PI.

Tim Simmons · 1st February 2007, 10:30 AM

I wonder if we see the same thing on this middle eastern knife. This knife is no longer mine. Although possibly a little more simple it is quite a formal pattern with some similarity to the Turkish design.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=balkan+knife

VVV · 1st February 2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

...The phallic symbolism of the sword has been shown to be relevant to many cultures and time periods.....
Could it be that the 'clouds' indeed symbolises 'heaven' , the repetative side motif symbolising 'life' (if it is a form of flora ) but, shaped in a phallic design (the 'bringer' of life? Male virility?). The 'rising' symbols perhaps representative of male, female (human seed? re-incarnated souls?). The Sword itself, is the 'bringer' of death, in combination with the 'life' symbolism, we end up with a depiction of the cycle of life........birth (re-birth?) , growth and death... we could 'crack' the lost meanings ...

The phallic symbolism for the Kris is quite probable.
At least one myth in Indonesia mentions this aspect as well as the old connection between Keris and Shivaism.

Michael

Bill M · 1st February 2007, 06:55 PM

Hmm, it seems that we are looking at symbols from a culture that was originally Negrito, animistic then with an Islamic veneer, over this older animistic culture.

We have two main avenues of possibilities. Interpret in terms of that particular society and interpret in terms of universal symbols.

Interpretations in terms of a societal arena posits certain questions. First, how many people in any culture truly understand in depth, the symbols of their OWN culture? And of those people, how many are willing to talk about those symbols? If they do talk, how much is intentional or accidental misinformation.

In "Shields of Melanesia" (2006) Ed Harry Beran and Barry Craig, the author remarks that he has often asked about a design on a new Guinea shield. Often he was told, “We merely follow what our ancestors have done.” When he asked about a certain symbol on a shield, they said, “the v-shape represents the beak of the hornbill.”

This could represent the way the hornbill beak looks from straight ahead as seen by the young hornbill when he is being fed through an opening in the tree trunk. Maybe this could be on the back of the shield to strengthen and protect the bearer.

This could fit in 'local legends' Melanesia or in Borneo. The Dayak believe that the hornbill is a divine messenger. Maybe the V could represent the hornbill telling a Dayak a message from the high kingdom. BUT unless you take the time to learn about a specific culture you will have an impossible time learning the symbolism that appears on weapons or other artifacts.

Continuing in “Shields of Melanesia,” the author continues to ponder the problem of understanding a culture by observation and logic. He uses the metaphor of an Martian anthropologist lands lands on earth. He begins to quiz people on the street of a modern industrial society about the meaning of the overall design of an automobile.

He would be told, “it does not represent anything. It evolved from carts pulled by horses. It is merely designed to transport people and goods."

But the Martian might ask deeper questions. Why does it have two headlights? Do they represent eyes? Maybe a talisman that looks ahead for the protection and safety of the driver? The grill looks like a mouth. Is this to threaten other drivers that your vehicle might attack and eat them?

I have left the book a few sentences back and now forge ahead on my own.

The three pointed star on the hood ornament (Mercedes) does this represent the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit of the Christian religion? The Trimurti (Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma)? The high world, the middle world and the lower world, always keeping them in mind as you go forth?

Do the hubcaps represent shields? They have 12 divisions. Does that correspond to your Zodiac? They are removable, do you use them for personal defense? As thrown weapons?

The patterns in your upholstery. They look vegetative. Do they represent the eggs and flowers of Creation? Is your exhaust a dragon simile?

Now I would suspect it would get even more complicated and possibly if our Martian was using his own culture as a basis.

So where does that leave us in the study of a design on an artifact created as an Islamic overlay on an animistic folk magic culture? Can logic lead anywhere productive?

I think it does if you approach these symbols from a more universal standpoint. Let the logic lead to a visceral response. What do they mean to you? Shiva’s Trident? Neptune’s Trident? Naga eggs? Clouds? Flowers? Do they evoke a feeling in you, the viewer?

Then that is exactly what they mean. What did they mean to the guy who put them there? I sincerely doubt anyone, even his wife, will ever know.

I believe it was Jung who suggested that instead of analyzing the dream, analyze the dreamer. If this strikes a chord in someone here – other than just thinking this reply is the ramblings of a bemused dreamer, myself, we can take this further.

Where do symbols come from? Why do we use them? Why are we drawn to them? Why are the religious systems of EVERY culture riddled with paradoxes?

Tim Simmons · 1st February 2007, 07:16 PM

Interesting points Bill. I am inclined to feel that we can look at these not as an absolute alien. We do have some well known facts about the people thier religion and lives. I am dreaming too, but a local version linked to a pan Islamic influence is a viable area to investigate. Looking for a source is possibly a first step. Scholars managed to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and much middle American writing systems. If other members had more to compere might be helpful.

Bill M · 2nd February 2007, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Interesting points Bill. I am inclined to feel that we can look at these not as an absolute alien. We do have some well known facts about the people thier religion and lives. I am dreaming too, but a local version linked to a pan Islamic influence is a viable area to investigate. Looking for a source is possibly a first step. Scholars managed to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and much middle American writing systems. If other members had more to compere might be helpful.

Hi Tim,

I believe the hieroglyphics were basically untranslateable until someone discovered the Rosetta stone that had the royal and heavenly (Egyptian) languages along with the same information in classical Greek.

Even then it took about 20 years, after it was discovered, (early 1800s) for a translation to be availaible. Comparative translation of this artifact originally created in about 200 bc did then lead to the understanding of previously untranslatable heiroglyphic texts. The text of the Rosetta Stone is a decree from Ptolemy V, describing the repealing of various taxes and instructions to erect statues in temples.

I don't necessarily see a correlation here. Best I can tell the early animistic cultures, whether Philippines or elsewhere had no written language.

I would like to belive that I coulld look at these animistic cultures with a better understanding, but I have friends who have been there and studied primitive cultures and they have told me there is an alien-ness that they never felt they ever understood.

Even in the works of Margaret Mead, there is confusion.

Still we can glean information from their works and hopefully enjoy a glimmer of understanding. We do the best we can. For now, I can see agreement with every interpretation in this thread on Michael's exceptional kris. All have validity.

Personally it looks like a protective enclosure focusing some energy down the blade.

VVV · 2nd February 2007, 10:02 AM

Bill,

Thanks for your interesting posts.
One thing that puzzles me is the Negrito connection?
As far as I understand the "Moros" are of Malay-Indonesian origin and not related to the original "Negritos" living before them on the islands?
Another influence, especially important related to Kris culture and Folk Islam, is the pre-Islamic Hindu beliefs in this area.

Also there exist some early documentation to be found on the beliefs in the area from the time before this Kris was produced.

On the two avenues it's a classical clash of two schools (f.i. within your field of comparative religion);
- all symbols are universal (Eliade, Jung), and
- all symbols are specific to the local culture (Evans-Pritchard, Geertz).
As usual with two extremes "the truth" is often found somewhere inbetween.

I really enjoyed your Martian example but if the Martian had read about the earthlings before his field work probably he had drawn less drastic conclusions?

I fully agree with you on:

"Still we can glean information from their works and hopefully enjoy a glimmer of understanding."

That's exactly the purpose of this thread. We can probably never find out for sure the exact meaning of this motif. But together maybe we can find some possible explanations of it?
The alternative is to dismiss it as all guess work, which in a way it of course is. But that doesn't increase the possibility of understanding on how to get closer to some of the more probable meanings of this riddle.

Michael

Tim Simmons · 2nd February 2007, 06:35 PM

We also know that the people in question are indeed Muslims and as one of the worlds major faiths comes with its own iconography. Look at the array of styles of Christian crosses from region to region, all mean the same thing. Could the images on these two weapons be the same scenario? We know religious mottoes and talisman are used as protective and good fortune symbols. We could want or have a need to dig too deep and expect or hope for a strange occult outcome when it might be quite straight forward, perhaps even obvious once one is attuned?

Somebody must have another Islamic weapon with something similar on it?

30th January 2007, 08:15 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I appreciate that sometimes I have some 'wacky' ideas....but if we all thought the same way....progress in knowledge would be greatly slowed. (well that's my excuse anyway ) but I'd like to throw this idea into the discussion. The phallic symbolism of the sword has been shown to be relevant to many cultures and time periods..... Could it be that the 'clouds' indeed symbolises 'heaven' , the repetative side motif symbolising 'life' (if it is a form of flora ) but, shaped in a phallic design (the 'bringer' of life? Male virility?). The 'rising' symbols perhaps representative of male, female (human seed? re-incarnated souls?). The Sword itself, is the 'bringer' of death, in combination with the 'life' symbolism, we end up with a depiction of the cycle of life........birth (re-birth?) , growth and death. .........and afterall 'The pen_is mightier than the sword'... Interesting thread, iconography, symbolism etc is an important part in the study of ethnographic weaponary. If we could 'crack' the lost meanings ...we would get 'more of a feel' of how these items were viewed through the 'eyes' of their original owners. Attached Images

1st February 2007, 10:30 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I wonder if we see the same thing on this middle eastern knife. This knife is no longer mine. Although possibly a little more simple it is quite a formal pattern with some similarity to the Turkish design. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=balkan+knife Attached Images

30th January 2007, 08:29 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	The Mosque as an image is not unknown on carpets, sorry to labour this aspect but they do give a wonderful resource. I could see a column of people prone at prayer which would be very unorthodox and a fantastic example of a PI twist to an Islamic motif. The image carried on a blade as this is the tropics, sheep are not kept so the carpet tradition and artistic expession does not exist in PI.

1st February 2007, 06:55 PM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Hmm, it seems that we are looking at symbols from a culture that was originally Negrito, animistic then with an Islamic veneer, over this older animistic culture. We have two main avenues of possibilities. Interpret in terms of that particular society and interpret in terms of universal symbols. Interpretations in terms of a societal arena posits certain questions. First, how many people in any culture truly understand in depth, the symbols of their OWN culture? And of those people, how many are willing to talk about those symbols? If they do talk, how much is intentional or accidental misinformation. In "Shields of Melanesia" (2006) Ed Harry Beran and Barry Craig, the author remarks that he has often asked about a design on a new Guinea shield. Often he was told, “We merely follow what our ancestors have done.” When he asked about a certain symbol on a shield, they said, “the v-shape represents the beak of the hornbill.” This could represent the way the hornbill beak looks from straight ahead as seen by the young hornbill when he is being fed through an opening in the tree trunk. Maybe this could be on the back of the shield to strengthen and protect the bearer. This could fit in 'local legends' Melanesia or in Borneo. The Dayak believe that the hornbill is a divine messenger. Maybe the V could represent the hornbill telling a Dayak a message from the high kingdom. BUT unless you take the time to learn about a specific culture you will have an impossible time learning the symbolism that appears on weapons or other artifacts. Continuing in “Shields of Melanesia,” the author continues to ponder the problem of understanding a culture by observation and logic. He uses the metaphor of an Martian anthropologist lands lands on earth. He begins to quiz people on the street of a modern industrial society about the meaning of the overall design of an automobile. He would be told, “it does not represent anything. It evolved from carts pulled by horses. It is merely designed to transport people and goods." But the Martian might ask deeper questions. Why does it have two headlights? Do they represent eyes? Maybe a talisman that looks ahead for the protection and safety of the driver? The grill looks like a mouth. Is this to threaten other drivers that your vehicle might attack and eat them? I have left the book a few sentences back and now forge ahead on my own. The three pointed star on the hood ornament (Mercedes) does this represent the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit of the Christian religion? The Trimurti (Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma)? The high world, the middle world and the lower world, always keeping them in mind as you go forth? Do the hubcaps represent shields? They have 12 divisions. Does that correspond to your Zodiac? They are removable, do you use them for personal defense? As thrown weapons? The patterns in your upholstery. They look vegetative. Do they represent the eggs and flowers of Creation? Is your exhaust a dragon simile? Now I would suspect it would get even more complicated and possibly if our Martian was using his own culture as a basis. So where does that leave us in the study of a design on an artifact created as an Islamic overlay on an animistic folk magic culture? Can logic lead anywhere productive? I think it does if you approach these symbols from a more universal standpoint. Let the logic lead to a visceral response. What do they mean to you? Shiva’s Trident? Neptune’s Trident? Naga eggs? Clouds? Flowers? Do they evoke a feeling in you, the viewer? Then that is exactly what they mean. What did they mean to the guy who put them there? I sincerely doubt anyone, even his wife, will ever know. I believe it was Jung who suggested that instead of analyzing the dream, analyze the dreamer. If this strikes a chord in someone here – other than just thinking this reply is the ramblings of a bemused dreamer, myself, we can take this further. Where do symbols come from? Why do we use them? Why are we drawn to them? Why are the religious systems of EVERY culture riddled with paradoxes?

1st February 2007, 07:16 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Interesting points Bill. I am inclined to feel that we can look at these not as an absolute alien. We do have some well known facts about the people thier religion and lives. I am dreaming too, but a local version linked to a pan Islamic influence is a viable area to investigate. Looking for a source is possibly a first step. Scholars managed to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and much middle American writing systems. If other members had more to compere might be helpful.

2nd February 2007, 10:02 AM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Bill, Thanks for your interesting posts. One thing that puzzles me is the Negrito connection? As far as I understand the "Moros" are of Malay-Indonesian origin and not related to the original "Negritos" living before them on the islands? Another influence, especially important related to Kris culture and Folk Islam, is the pre-Islamic Hindu beliefs in this area. Also there exist some early documentation to be found on the beliefs in the area from the time before this Kris was produced. On the two avenues it's a classical clash of two schools (f.i. within your field of comparative religion); - all symbols are universal (Eliade, Jung), and - all symbols are specific to the local culture (Evans-Pritchard, Geertz). As usual with two extremes "the truth" is often found somewhere inbetween. I really enjoyed your Martian example but if the Martian had read about the earthlings before his field work probably he had drawn less drastic conclusions? I fully agree with you on: "Still we can glean information from their works and hopefully enjoy a glimmer of understanding." That's exactly the purpose of this thread. We can probably never find out for sure the exact meaning of this motif. But together maybe we can find some possible explanations of it? The alternative is to dismiss it as all guess work, which in a way it of course is. But that doesn't increase the possibility of understanding on how to get closer to some of the more probable meanings of this riddle. Michael

2nd February 2007, 06:35 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	We also know that the people in question are indeed Muslims and as one of the worlds major faiths comes with its own iconography. Look at the array of styles of Christian crosses from region to region, all mean the same thing. Could the images on these two weapons be the same scenario? We know religious mottoes and talisman are used as protective and good fortune symbols. We could want or have a need to dig too deep and expect or hope for a strange occult outcome when it might be quite straight forward, perhaps even obvious once one is attuned? Somebody must have another Islamic weapon with something similar on it?