Dahb Thai, Japanese swords and hybrids

Mark · 30th January 2007, 02:05 PM

Great stuff, Puff! (By the way, one photo in the last message didn't post properly). The photos raise a couple questions for me.

First, of in the ones from Utaradit, Pisanulok area, the top two look like top-most of the Ratanakosin-era dahb. Is this because they are all both from Utaradit and the Ratanakosin era, or is there some feature distinguishing the two?

Second, in the photo of the Utaradit dahb, what distinguishes the lowest one as an exceutioner's sword? Is it the heaviness of the blade, the hua, or the handle? Maybe something else? It is difficult to make out anything of the exceutioner's sword in the photos of the linked thread (beware, people, they are very graphic).

Finally, in the last photo of dahb from southern Thailand, the first and third I had thought were a Lanna (i.e., northern) style, based on the pommel and ferrule (area next to the blade). Similar swords are shown in Punjabhan, Silverware in Thailand (1991), as I recall from the National Museum collection, and are identified as being from Lanna. There was no discussion in Punjabhan regarding the distinguishing features, so my identification of this pommel and ferrule style with Lanna is just based on comparing the various photos and noting those features that were found consistently in the dahb attributed to Lanna, but not in other dahb.

These dabh meeting you have been holding have been generating some very interesting and exciting new (for me) information. If I can get to Thailand at the right time, I would love to attend one.

DhaDha · 30th January 2007, 10:39 PM

Can't thank you enough...

PUFF · 31st January 2007, 04:40 AM

Hi, Mark, all pics looks ok for me. Please let me know which one's not working and I will repost it.

Your first question 's about similarity between Dahb Utaradit and one from early Rattanakosin era. Geographically, Utaradit and Pisanulok (BLUE) are major cities southern of Lanna (GREEN). The cities were self-govern under Siamese capitol (RED) 's power in both Ayuthaya and Rattanakosin periods. The sword labeled as Dahb from Rattanakosin era (the top one) shared blade similarity with ones from late Ayuthaya era. It 's hypothesized that they have same craftsmanship (same smith guild or linage). Although ones from southern area of Lanna (Utaradit-Pisanulok) have similar art (decoration, style, tip style) but they are different in terms of profile and balance. Its blade profile 's somewhat influenced by Lanna 's blade, narrow "waist", highly-taper-spine. And we agree to put such Dahb in another catagory than Lanna, Ayuthaya or Rattanakosin, even the blades are from late Ayuthaya-early Rattanakosin era.

PUFF · 31st January 2007, 04:57 AM

The executioner 's Dahb 's the one labeled as Rattanakosin period's.

It 's single-handed Dahb with CG toward the tip (aka, COP moved to about 1/3 from the tip instead of 1-2 inches as most of Dahbs in the same period). It 's overall weight 's just a little heavier than regular ones. The dahb 's obtained from executioner 's family and there are references that the Dahb did the job.

I rated the following pics as violence ones, please click the links to view them.

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3006/5fa1.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/chomjan/04a.jpg

PUFF · 31st January 2007, 05:21 AM

Regarding to the southern Dahbs, they shared a similar fate as Dahbs from southern area of Lanna. Since Ayuthaya era, the region was under Siamese power for some period, they were self-rule for some period and they were fully governed by Siamese governer for some period. So, their craftsmanship was mixed up with Siamese's. Althoug the example at top of the rack do has Siamese profile with Lanna style hilt. But its detail 's a lot different from typical Lanna Dhabs. The hilt 's cast of brass with persian-style detail. And we do have another identical Dahb with a good reference that it was belong to a southern noble family.
Mark, you are very good in Dha ID. Even from a poor taken pic, you can ID it right. The third one also very Lanna'ish to me. The hilt was carved of wood in oval profile (instead of round profile as typical ones), very similar pattern to the silver one from Nan province (in Lanna area). Blade profile, decorative and scabbard remind me a Lanna blade. But the onwer do has good reference that the blade 's obtained from southern part of Thailand. And it was there for some good time. It 's possible that the blade was made to order, or brought to the area by "northern" folk.

Andrew · 31st January 2007, 01:17 PM

Once again, many thanks for sharing this information with us, Puff.

Tim Simmons · 31st January 2007, 05:50 PM

Very interesting and a little alarming. These pictures bring me back to this sword and why it was dismissed as no more than a snake killer

. Yes it is clearly latter in the 20th century but still a real weapon. I show it next to one that will meet with your approval. The more modern one is equally well tempered and although heavier can flex but not like the old one.

31st January 2007, 04:40 AM	#3
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Hi, Mark, all pics looks ok for me. Please let me know which one's not working and I will repost it. Your first question 's about similarity between Dahb Utaradit and one from early Rattanakosin era. Geographically, Utaradit and Pisanulok (BLUE) are major cities southern of Lanna (GREEN). The cities were self-govern under Siamese capitol (RED) 's power in both Ayuthaya and Rattanakosin periods. The sword labeled as Dahb from Rattanakosin era (the top one) shared blade similarity with ones from late Ayuthaya era. It 's hypothesized that they have same craftsmanship (same smith guild or linage). Although ones from southern area of Lanna (Utaradit-Pisanulok) have similar art (decoration, style, tip style) but they are different in terms of profile and balance. Its blade profile 's somewhat influenced by Lanna 's blade, narrow "waist", highly-taper-spine. And we agree to put such Dahb in another catagory than Lanna, Ayuthaya or Rattanakosin, even the blades are from late Ayuthaya-early Rattanakosin era. Attached Images

31st January 2007, 05:21 AM	#5
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Regarding to the southern Dahbs, they shared a similar fate as Dahbs from southern area of Lanna. Since Ayuthaya era, the region was under Siamese power for some period, they were self-rule for some period and they were fully governed by Siamese governer for some period. So, their craftsmanship was mixed up with Siamese's. Althoug the example at top of the rack do has Siamese profile with Lanna style hilt. But its detail 's a lot different from typical Lanna Dhabs. The hilt 's cast of brass with persian-style detail. And we do have another identical Dahb with a good reference that it was belong to a southern noble family. Mark, you are very good in Dha ID. Even from a poor taken pic, you can ID it right. The third one also very Lanna'ish to me. The hilt was carved of wood in oval profile (instead of round profile as typical ones), very similar pattern to the silver one from Nan province (in Lanna area). Blade profile, decorative and scabbard remind me a Lanna blade. But the onwer do has good reference that the blade 's obtained from southern part of Thailand. And it was there for some good time. It 's possible that the blade was made to order, or brought to the area by "northern" folk. Last edited by PUFF; 1st February 2007 at 02:10 AM.

31st January 2007, 05:50 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Very interesting and a little alarming. These pictures bring me back to this sword and why it was dismissed as no more than a snake killer . Yes it is clearly latter in the 20th century but still a real weapon. I show it next to one that will meet with your approval. The more modern one is equally well tempered and although heavier can flex but not like the old one. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 31st January 2007 at 06:13 PM.

30th January 2007, 02:05 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Great stuff, Puff! (By the way, one photo in the last message didn't post properly). The photos raise a couple questions for me. First, of in the ones from Utaradit, Pisanulok area, the top two look like top-most of the Ratanakosin-era dahb. Is this because they are all both from Utaradit and the Ratanakosin era, or is there some feature distinguishing the two? Second, in the photo of the Utaradit dahb, what distinguishes the lowest one as an exceutioner's sword? Is it the heaviness of the blade, the hua, or the handle? Maybe something else? It is difficult to make out anything of the exceutioner's sword in the photos of the linked thread (beware, people, they are very graphic). Finally, in the last photo of dahb from southern Thailand, the first and third I had thought were a Lanna (i.e., northern) style, based on the pommel and ferrule (area next to the blade). Similar swords are shown in Punjabhan, Silverware in Thailand (1991), as I recall from the National Museum collection, and are identified as being from Lanna. There was no discussion in Punjabhan regarding the distinguishing features, so my identification of this pommel and ferrule style with Lanna is just based on comparing the various photos and noting those features that were found consistently in the dahb attributed to Lanna, but not in other dahb. These dabh meeting you have been holding have been generating some very interesting and exciting new (for me) information. If I can get to Thailand at the right time, I would love to attend one.

30th January 2007, 10:39 PM	#2
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 176	Can't thank you enough...

31st January 2007, 04:57 AM	#4
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The executioner 's Dahb 's the one labeled as Rattanakosin period's. It 's single-handed Dahb with CG toward the tip (aka, COP moved to about 1/3 from the tip instead of 1-2 inches as most of Dahbs in the same period). It 's overall weight 's just a little heavier than regular ones. The dahb 's obtained from executioner 's family and there are references that the Dahb did the job. I rated the following pics as violence ones, please click the links to view them. http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3006/5fa1.jpg http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/chomjan/04a.jpg

31st January 2007, 01:17 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Once again, many thanks for sharing this information with us, Puff.