Help with talismanic inscriptions?

VVV · 30th January 2007, 07:57 AM

The tree of life/central pillar/axis mundi is a very important both archaic and universal symbol for comparing different religions according to the leading authority within this field - Mircea Eliade. In short it's the center of the world, the connection point between the heaven (where "the Sacred" reside), the earth (humans) and often the underworld. Compare Jacob's ladder, Gunungan etc.

Seeing the scales/eggs as clouds, symbolising heaven, is maybe a key to this riddle?
On the "figures" inbetween an interpretation could be that they somehow represents something dualistic, like + - + -.
To have an idea what it could be of course you have to know more about the local myths and beliefs than I do at the moment. Maybe if somebody knows something about local creation myths a theory could be developed? An example could be if f.i. at the time of creation some divine force created two men and two females from where all humans origin?

Not knowing if this is the case a hypothesis of this inlay as talismanic could be:

At the base of the Kris (heaven, the Sacred?) is something of a "battery/power source" that transmits some kind of energy (the + - + -). This energy is transformed into a (earth - vegetative, creative) force (birth-life-death) that is pointed at an enemy in battle to powercharge this Kris.

If the + - + - represents male and female ancestors then we have a metaphysical "nuclear missile launcher"?

Michael

Tim Simmons · 30th January 2007, 11:04 AM

The scales/eggs are the garden of Eden/paradise and the clouds the sky and gateway to the divine light and throne of god.
I am turning into a carpet salesman

. They do help explain Islamic iconography. With this Turkish example the same message is behind a much more formal arrangement. The garden/paradise is a single plant in a pedestal bowl. Kashmir to Turkey is nearly as far as Kashmir to PI echoing the spread of Islam. I bet if members look they will see more of this stylised motif on other weapons.

VVV · 30th January 2007, 01:09 PM

Tim,

As you have noticed I got inspired by your tree of life interpretation of the inlay.
But I am more hesitant to the "backwards symbolism" of sending yourself to heaven from earth with the help of this sword.
I find it more probable that the owner wished to survive and the sword to send the opponent to hell instead.

From what little I have been exposed to Filipino culture I have seen more of positive thinking than negative thinking of the outcome of battles.
In the case of Juramentado I have the impression that the blades they used were not as expensive and high status like this?

Michael

Tim Simmons · 30th January 2007, 03:12 PM

I am sure it would be a positive thing. like all mottoes on weapons. God is always on your side.

Tim Simmons · 30th January 2007, 07:28 PM

Honest. I post this one from Afghanistan to show how stylised these can get. So the images on the blade are relatively conservative.

katana · 30th January 2007, 08:15 PM

I appreciate that sometimes I have some 'wacky' ideas....but if we all thought the same way....progress in knowledge would be greatly slowed. (well that's my excuse anyway

) but I'd like to throw this idea into the discussion.

The phallic symbolism of the sword has been shown to be relevant to many cultures and time periods.....
Could it be that the 'clouds' indeed symbolises 'heaven' , the repetative side motif symbolising 'life' (if it is a form of flora ) but, shaped in a phallic design (the 'bringer' of life? Male virility?). The 'rising' symbols perhaps representative of male, female (human seed? re-incarnated souls?). The Sword itself, is the 'bringer' of death, in combination with the 'life' symbolism, we end up with a depiction of the cycle of life........birth (re-birth?) , growth and death.

.........and afterall 'The pen_is mightier than the sword'...

Interesting thread, iconography, symbolism etc is an important part in the study of ethnographic weaponary. If we could 'crack' the lost meanings ...we would get 'more of a feel' of how these items were viewed through the 'eyes' of their original owners.

Tim Simmons · 30th January 2007, 08:29 PM

The Mosque as an image is not unknown on carpets, sorry to labour this aspect but they do give a wonderful resource. I could see a column of people prone at prayer which would be very unorthodox and a fantastic example of a PI twist to an Islamic motif. The image carried on a blade as this is the tropics, sheep are not kept so the carpet tradition and artistic expession does not exist in PI.

VVV · 1st February 2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

...The phallic symbolism of the sword has been shown to be relevant to many cultures and time periods.....
Could it be that the 'clouds' indeed symbolises 'heaven' , the repetative side motif symbolising 'life' (if it is a form of flora ) but, shaped in a phallic design (the 'bringer' of life? Male virility?). The 'rising' symbols perhaps representative of male, female (human seed? re-incarnated souls?). The Sword itself, is the 'bringer' of death, in combination with the 'life' symbolism, we end up with a depiction of the cycle of life........birth (re-birth?) , growth and death... we could 'crack' the lost meanings ...

The phallic symbolism for the Kris is quite probable.
At least one myth in Indonesia mentions this aspect as well as the old connection between Keris and Shivaism.

Michael

30th January 2007, 07:57 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	The tree of life/central pillar/axis mundi is a very important both archaic and universal symbol for comparing different religions according to the leading authority within this field - Mircea Eliade. In short it's the center of the world, the connection point between the heaven (where "the Sacred" reside), the earth (humans) and often the underworld. Compare Jacob's ladder, Gunungan etc. Seeing the scales/eggs as clouds, symbolising heaven, is maybe a key to this riddle? On the "figures" inbetween an interpretation could be that they somehow represents something dualistic, like + - + -. To have an idea what it could be of course you have to know more about the local myths and beliefs than I do at the moment. Maybe if somebody knows something about local creation myths a theory could be developed? An example could be if f.i. at the time of creation some divine force created two men and two females from where all humans origin? Not knowing if this is the case a hypothesis of this inlay as talismanic could be: At the base of the Kris (heaven, the Sacred?) is something of a "battery/power source" that transmits some kind of energy (the + - + -). This energy is transformed into a (earth - vegetative, creative) force (birth-life-death) that is pointed at an enemy in battle to powercharge this Kris. If the + - + - represents male and female ancestors then we have a metaphysical "nuclear missile launcher"? Michael Last edited by VVV; 30th January 2007 at 08:34 AM.

30th January 2007, 03:12 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	I am sure it would be a positive thing. like all mottoes on weapons. God is always on your side. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 30th January 2007 at 07:02 PM. Reason: spelling

30th January 2007, 07:28 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	I am not selling carpets. Honest. I post this one from Afghanistan to show how stylised these can get. So the images on the blade are relatively conservative.

30th January 2007, 08:15 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I appreciate that sometimes I have some 'wacky' ideas....but if we all thought the same way....progress in knowledge would be greatly slowed. (well that's my excuse anyway ) but I'd like to throw this idea into the discussion. The phallic symbolism of the sword has been shown to be relevant to many cultures and time periods..... Could it be that the 'clouds' indeed symbolises 'heaven' , the repetative side motif symbolising 'life' (if it is a form of flora ) but, shaped in a phallic design (the 'bringer' of life? Male virility?). The 'rising' symbols perhaps representative of male, female (human seed? re-incarnated souls?). The Sword itself, is the 'bringer' of death, in combination with the 'life' symbolism, we end up with a depiction of the cycle of life........birth (re-birth?) , growth and death. .........and afterall 'The pen_is mightier than the sword'... Interesting thread, iconography, symbolism etc is an important part in the study of ethnographic weaponary. If we could 'crack' the lost meanings ...we would get 'more of a feel' of how these items were viewed through the 'eyes' of their original owners. Attached Images

30th January 2007, 11:04 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	The scales/eggs are the garden of Eden/paradise and the clouds the sky and gateway to the divine light and throne of god. I am turning into a carpet salesman . They do help explain Islamic iconography. With this Turkish example the same message is behind a much more formal arrangement. The garden/paradise is a single plant in a pedestal bowl. Kashmir to Turkey is nearly as far as Kashmir to PI echoing the spread of Islam. I bet if members look they will see more of this stylised motif on other weapons.

30th January 2007, 01:09 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Tim, As you have noticed I got inspired by your tree of life interpretation of the inlay. But I am more hesitant to the "backwards symbolism" of sending yourself to heaven from earth with the help of this sword. I find it more probable that the owner wished to survive and the sword to send the opponent to hell instead. From what little I have been exposed to Filipino culture I have seen more of positive thinking than negative thinking of the outcome of battles. In the case of Juramentado I have the impression that the blades they used were not as expensive and high status like this? Michael

30th January 2007, 08:29 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	The Mosque as an image is not unknown on carpets, sorry to labour this aspect but they do give a wonderful resource. I could see a column of people prone at prayer which would be very unorthodox and a fantastic example of a PI twist to an Islamic motif. The image carried on a blade as this is the tropics, sheep are not kept so the carpet tradition and artistic expession does not exist in PI.