Preservation vs. restoration - opinions?

VANDOO · 28th January 2007, 10:46 PM

PRESERVATION SHOULD ALWAYS BE DONE IF YOU KNOW HOW AND HAVE THE SKILLS OR CAN LEARN THEM. WITHOUT ATTEMPTS AT PRESERVATION EVEN A PRISTINE EXAMPLE WILL BECOME LESS PRISTINE AND A BADLY RUSTED ITEM WILL BECOME MUCH WORSE QUICKLY. NO PRESERVATION EQUALS NEGELECT. ALL IRON OR STEEL ARTEFACTS DUG UP IN ARCHEOLOGICAL DIGS ON LAND AND IN SEA HAVE TO BE STABLEIZED OR THEY WILL BE LOST AND IT DOSEN'T EFFECT THE VALUE.

RESTORE

THAT IS WHERE IT BECOMES MORE DIFFICULT AS SOME WILL ARGUE THAT THE ITEM IS NOW DESTROYED AND OF NO VALUE AS AN EXAMPLE AS IT IS NO LONGER AUTHENTIC. OFTEN THEY WILL NOT BUY IT IF ITS IN VERY BAD SHAPE AND MISSING PARTS AND WILL NOT BUY IT IF IT HAS BEEN MESSED WITH =(CLEANED DOWN TO THE METAL AND PARTS REPLACED AND LOOKING LIKE IT DID WHEN NEW)

MY PERSONEL OPPINION ON THIS IS IF IT HAS NO PROVENANCE AND CAN BE PROPERLY RESTORED FOR A REASONABLE COST THEN DO IT. IF IT HAS PROVENANCE AND IS REMARKABLE BUT IN TERRIBLE SHAPE ,USEING FOR AN EXAMPLE THE SWORD OF SUTTON HOO IT SHOULD BE PRESERVED AS IS AND PERHAPS A GOOD REPLICA MADE TO SHOW WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE NEW (THIS IS WHAT WAS DONE) FOR ANOTHER EXAMPLE THE VENUS OF MILO STATUE ,SHOULD THE MISSING ARMS BE BUT BACK ON THE STATUE IF FOUND

I AM SURE IT WOULD BE ARGUED BOTH WAYS.

FORTUNATELY IF YOU CHOOSE TO RESTORE YOUR ITEM THERE WILL BE NO INTERNATIONAL OUTCRY

SO I WOULD DO WHAT I WISHED WITH IT AS FAR AS RESTORATION AND WOULD CERTIANLY STABELIZE AND PRESERVE IT. OR PERHAPS TRADE OR SELL IT TO A COLLECTOR WHO LIKES HIS SWORDS ROUGH BUT AUTHENTIC

HAVING WALRUS IVORY GRIPS DOES SHOW IT WAS AN ITEM WELL MADE AND EXPENSIVE IN ITS TIME THE IVORY SHOULD ALSO BE STABELIZED AS I AM SURE IT IS DRY AND BRITTLE.( SEE OLD POSTS ON IVORY).

BBJW · 29th January 2007, 05:58 AM

Personally I think one should keep the piece from deteriorating further by careful cleaning and oiling. I prefer to see pieces not restored and overcleaned.

bbjw

mross · 29th January 2007, 05:05 PM

I think the answer is; It depends!

What does it depend on? Well that is a cultural bias. If you own a nihonto and let it get a nice overal patina, you are thought of as abusing the blade. Japanese blades look much better when in full, CORRECT polish. The key is correct. What is correct? Good question. Correct is done by someone who has completed a full appreticeship in polishing from a qualified teacher.
I believe the same applies to Keris and Kris. Keris are routinely etched and have there fittings changed. If it is ok from a cultural standpoint then it's ok as long as it's done right.
Moro's held their weapons in very high regard and kept them polished and etched. It is reasonable to assume that fittings where replaced when they became unusable. The problem is there are very few who can replace the fittings and do it correctly. We have one or two on this list that can do Moro right. One thing to be aware of and beware of is this does not mean just because you are Japanese you can correctly polish a nihonto, and just because you are related to Moro does not mean you can get the fittings right.
Nihonto is unique because there is a long and highly documented traditon on how to do it and how to evaluate it.
Moro swords are hard because there are none of the old timers left that know what it means to do it right. To the best of my knowledge there is little to no documentation on Moro sword's, and the one's that knew are no longer around.
The easy and hard answer is EDUCATION. (easy and hard, how's that for a very Zen answer) Know what was done for the area you collect in. Learn the culture, how the weapon was cared for. Then go from there.

ThePepperSkull · 17th July 2011, 09:17 PM

(off-topic response, pls delete)

17th July 2011, 09:17 PM	#4
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	(off-topic response, pls delete) Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 18th July 2011 at 04:08 AM. Reason: off-topic response. misread the subject of discussion

28th January 2007, 10:46 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	PRESERVATION SHOULD ALWAYS BE DONE IF YOU KNOW HOW AND HAVE THE SKILLS OR CAN LEARN THEM. WITHOUT ATTEMPTS AT PRESERVATION EVEN A PRISTINE EXAMPLE WILL BECOME LESS PRISTINE AND A BADLY RUSTED ITEM WILL BECOME MUCH WORSE QUICKLY. NO PRESERVATION EQUALS NEGELECT. ALL IRON OR STEEL ARTEFACTS DUG UP IN ARCHEOLOGICAL DIGS ON LAND AND IN SEA HAVE TO BE STABLEIZED OR THEY WILL BE LOST AND IT DOSEN'T EFFECT THE VALUE. RESTORE THAT IS WHERE IT BECOMES MORE DIFFICULT AS SOME WILL ARGUE THAT THE ITEM IS NOW DESTROYED AND OF NO VALUE AS AN EXAMPLE AS IT IS NO LONGER AUTHENTIC. OFTEN THEY WILL NOT BUY IT IF ITS IN VERY BAD SHAPE AND MISSING PARTS AND WILL NOT BUY IT IF IT HAS BEEN MESSED WITH =(CLEANED DOWN TO THE METAL AND PARTS REPLACED AND LOOKING LIKE IT DID WHEN NEW) MY PERSONEL OPPINION ON THIS IS IF IT HAS NO PROVENANCE AND CAN BE PROPERLY RESTORED FOR A REASONABLE COST THEN DO IT. IF IT HAS PROVENANCE AND IS REMARKABLE BUT IN TERRIBLE SHAPE ,USEING FOR AN EXAMPLE THE SWORD OF SUTTON HOO IT SHOULD BE PRESERVED AS IS AND PERHAPS A GOOD REPLICA MADE TO SHOW WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE NEW (THIS IS WHAT WAS DONE) FOR ANOTHER EXAMPLE THE VENUS OF MILO STATUE ,SHOULD THE MISSING ARMS BE BUT BACK ON THE STATUE IF FOUND I AM SURE IT WOULD BE ARGUED BOTH WAYS. FORTUNATELY IF YOU CHOOSE TO RESTORE YOUR ITEM THERE WILL BE NO INTERNATIONAL OUTCRY SO I WOULD DO WHAT I WISHED WITH IT AS FAR AS RESTORATION AND WOULD CERTIANLY STABELIZE AND PRESERVE IT. OR PERHAPS TRADE OR SELL IT TO A COLLECTOR WHO LIKES HIS SWORDS ROUGH BUT AUTHENTIC HAVING WALRUS IVORY GRIPS DOES SHOW IT WAS AN ITEM WELL MADE AND EXPENSIVE IN ITS TIME THE IVORY SHOULD ALSO BE STABELIZED AS I AM SURE IT IS DRY AND BRITTLE.( SEE OLD POSTS ON IVORY).

29th January 2007, 05:58 AM	#2
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Personally I think one should keep the piece from deteriorating further by careful cleaning and oiling. I prefer to see pieces not restored and overcleaned. bbjw

29th January 2007, 05:05 PM	#3
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	I think the answer is; It depends! What does it depend on? Well that is a cultural bias. If you own a nihonto and let it get a nice overal patina, you are thought of as abusing the blade. Japanese blades look much better when in full, CORRECT polish. The key is correct. What is correct? Good question. Correct is done by someone who has completed a full appreticeship in polishing from a qualified teacher. I believe the same applies to Keris and Kris. Keris are routinely etched and have there fittings changed. If it is ok from a cultural standpoint then it's ok as long as it's done right. Moro's held their weapons in very high regard and kept them polished and etched. It is reasonable to assume that fittings where replaced when they became unusable. The problem is there are very few who can replace the fittings and do it correctly. We have one or two on this list that can do Moro right. One thing to be aware of and beware of is this does not mean just because you are Japanese you can correctly polish a nihonto, and just because you are related to Moro does not mean you can get the fittings right. Nihonto is unique because there is a long and highly documented traditon on how to do it and how to evaluate it. Moro swords are hard because there are none of the old timers left that know what it means to do it right. To the best of my knowledge there is little to no documentation on Moro sword's, and the one's that knew are no longer around. The easy and hard answer is EDUCATION. (easy and hard, how's that for a very Zen answer) Know what was done for the area you collect in. Learn the culture, how the weapon was cared for. Then go from there.